Christians' throats slit in Turkey

Middle East Concern has sent me this report of an horrific story, also covered in today's Times. Three Christians have been killed by five young attackers on Wednesday early afternoon. The three victims, two Turks and a German, were discovered at the Zirve publishing house in the eastern city of Malatya. They were bound to a chair and their throats had been slit. This picture of police wrestling an unidentified man after the attacks comes from Christianity Today.

Necati Aydin leaves a wife and two small children. Ugur Yuksel was single. Both were in their mid-thirties. The German national, Tilmann Geske, leaves a wife and three children between 8-13 years old. He was 46 years old. The two Turkish Christians worked at the publishing house. Geske worked for a translation company in Malatya. Ugur Yuksel was buried Thursday morning in Elazig, while Aydin's funeral is planned for Saturday in Izmir.

The general manager of the publishing house has told local media that his employees had received threats in recent times.

Police have detained four men, aged 19 to 20, and a fifth suspect has been hospitalized with serious injuries obtained while jumping from the fourth floor of the building trying to escape arrest.

Christians in Turkey have complained of rising pressure and harassment, a feeling many say stems from a rising wave of nationalism. Malatya is known for its nationalism.

Ertugrul Ozkok wrote in the Hurriyet Newspaper: "While there is only one handful of actual murderers involved, there are many, many assistants", referring to what he described as "as agents of provocation" in the increasingly anti-Christian sentiments in the country. These are identified by him as newspapers which have written many negative articles about Christians and politicians which have made negative statements at political rallies.

These latest killings have been widely condemned in Turkey and worldwide.

The attack is the latest in a string of attacks on Turkey's Christian community, which comprises less than one percent of the population. In February 2006, a Roman Catholic priest was shot to death as he prayed in his church, and two other priests were attacked later that year. Since then there have been several attacks on Turkish Christians and their church buildings.

Suna Erdem recently reported for The Times of protests against plans by Prime Minister Erdogan to run for President. It is feared that as a devout Muslim, his election to that post could jeopardise Turkey's separation between religion and state. Erdogan once served a prison sentence for sedition.

Expect a condemnation of the latest killings tomorrow from the NUJ - I don't think.

Comments

[George Hill]

Islamic Holy War Against More Than Just Israel

Yes, the world has changed! Suddenly, America joins the host of countries where war is on their own soil. A once obscure Arab guerilla leader named Osama, pledges, " I swear to God that America will not live in peace before peace reigns in Palestine, and before all the army of infidels depart the land of Mohammed."

And the greatest superpower the world has ever seen — listens.

So, what is this "new kind of war" that President Bush says we are in? He says it is not with the Islamic people, that Islam is a peaceful religion, that it has been hijacked by radical terrorist thugs.

But if this is true, there are a lot more of these "thugs" around than just in Afghanistan. The daily news continues to carry stories of violence and brutality from Indonesia to Sudan to Pakistan, to Nigeria, to the Philippines. And all these incidents are occurring where Islam either dominates or is operating guerilla war to topple a legitimate government.

These radicals are referred to as "fundamentalists." This means they take their religious teaching literally. Bible believers are branded with the same label. So, what is the difference? In a word: "jihad."

Islam, like Bible Christianity, sees a two-part world: kingdom of God and kingdom of Satan. The great commission prescribes discipleship as the method of advancing the kingdom of God against the kingdom of Satan.

Islam's great commission also includes advancing the kingdom of Allah against the kingdom of Satan, but with a very different method. Mohammed, himself, set the pattern. When asked what was the most important thing in Islam, he replied, "Faith in Allah and jihad in His path."

Then he proceeded to demonstrate what he meant by leading his army against all his neighbors until he had imposed his new religion on them on pain of death by his sword.

Jihad means "struggle." The "moderate" Muslim says that this means the personal struggle against sin. In the first part of the Koran, this appears to be Mohammed's teaching.

But later, when he gained power, he redefined it as a "holy war" and promised elaborate sensual pleasures in paradise for any "martyr" who died fighting to expand Allah's rule over the land of "infidels."

When an Islamic leader several years ago called America the "Great Satan" this placed the U.S. in the infidel camp, an open target for the "holy warriors." We now know that this was about the time when the plot against the World Trade Center was hatched.

Hundreds of young Muslims answered the call to attack the Great Satan spurred by the promise of dozens of virgins in paradise if they died in the process. Thus was born the most effective terrorist weapon, the suicide bomber.

Some see Israel as the focal point of Islamic violence and that the U.S. is only involved because of her support of Israel. But Israel is only called the "little Satan." One newsletter published by a Messianic ministry in Israel, says, "Here is the awful truth. Radical Islam is absolutely, utterly and totally at war with the world's Western Democratic nations."

Dave Hunt, in his book, "A Cup of Trembling: Jerusalem and Bible Prophecy", says, "Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That war was begun by Mohammed himself in the seventh century and is still carried on today by his faithful followers through terrorism."

But war is more than guns, planes and tanks. These are just tools used by armies to advance an idea or belief system. Islam believes that they are destined to conquer the world. And it teaches that war is holy if it advances Islamic control. Muslim soldiers who die in this war receive immediate entrance to paradise where 70 virgins lay on 70 bed sheets waiting for them.

In this war of ideas, Islam sees two arch enemies: Jews and Christians. Converted Muslim G.J.O. Moshay in his book, "Who is this Allah?", states: "The fact is never hidden as to the attitude a good Muslim should have towards Christians and Jews. In fact, much of the incitement to violence and war in the whole of the Koran is directed against the Jews and Christians..."

Sadly, Islam's concept of Christians is based on the inquisition and the crusades, not on exposure to true Bible believers. On this basis, Islam has virtually eliminated all "Christians," including soul winners, in the countries that they control. To them, the hated "Christian" nations have conspired with the Jews to invade Muslim territory (Palestine) and lay claim to the exact spot (the temple mount) where sits Islam's 3rd most holy mosque.

When bin Laden pledges to drive the infidels out of the land of Mohammed, he means Jerusalem first, but also, any other Muslim land where westerners dare enter, such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. After the Jews, he sees Americans as the next most hated intruders.

As you can see, Satan has constructed an almost air-tight domain in the Muslim world. Soul winners are particularly unwelcome. The penalty for "proselytizing" in any of the Muslim dominated countries is often death.

What can Bible believers do? Fortunately, millions of followers of Allah have settled in the western world. Estimates range up to 6 million in the United States. Europe and the UK host millions more.

We have freely welcomed them into our open, diverse society. Some have used that welcome to bring their "holy war" to our land. Most have settled here and are enjoying freedom's prosperity. They must be able to see the contrast between freedom's blessing and Islam's oppression. But few have been told that Jesus is the real reason for the difference.

Soul winners, that's where we come in. If we could get just a small percentage of them saved here, they would begin to share the power of the gospel with friends and relatives in their home land.

America has vowed to use military might to "smoke out" the terrorist cells. For some, that will be the only way to stop them. But, if we could win the spiritual war by winning enough of them to Christ, most of those cells would dissolve. If someone had won Mohamed Atta to Christ, would the Twin Towers still be standing

[George Hill]

April 30, 2008 at 03:48 PM

Protestants are still suffering in the Republic of Ireland

Irish Natzi Party Leinster House (privateoffice@taoiseach.gov.ie)

Then the Hill Family 1990---2007 Two Protestant family's terrorised for Seventeen long years
with the full Knowledge and consent of the Irish Government of the day and the Garda
commissioner who are supposed to be impartial and uphold law and order turned a blind eye
and did nothing. Who gave the order to burn us out? Who cut the brakes on our car? Who
made the phone calls that said I'm going to kill you all and burn you out again? Who tampered
with the tractor so I came close to being killed? Who fired shots at our house and put nails
into the back wheel of our car every Sunday to stop us from going to Church. Who do we turn
to for help? I and my family have been prescribed tablets by our doctor to help us through this
unlawful and brutal affair. We are a family that have been mentality tortured for 17 years by
members of the Gardai and the O'Sullivans /Mansfield relations of Bertie Ahern.
This is a statement made by me George Hill and I make it believing the facts to be true. I know
that if I say or write anything that are not truthful then I maybe liable
And prosecuted.
On the 22 November 2006 I remember the day and date well as it was my
Grand Son’s Birthday. We had a small party for him (just the family)
Late after noon we all set out to go to my Son’s rented house in Lucan.
On the way I had to stop off at City West Petrol Station to fill up our small car
My wife was driving up till this point.
I filled up our car with petrol and paid for it, as I left the forecourt a received a
Strong sixth sense that I was to drive and it was that inner voice or sixth sense what ever you
want to call it saved my life that day.
I drove out of the Garage after the fill up driving slowly as I was waiting for
Leslie & Jenny and the Children to catch up with us as I did not know the way to
Their new home.
I turned left at the first roundabout driving towards the second roundabout it was at that
Point I heard loud screeching of brakes and a car shot out of the roundabout like a
Bat out of hell at high speed on the wrong side of the road and straight for us.
There was nothing that I could do as the die was cast all I could do was bring the car to a halt
and wait for a collision.
.
As the car got closer the driver seemed surprised that I was now driving and at the last second
swerved rolled down a embankment crashed through a wooden fence bounced off a parked
van on the garage forecourt and crashed headlong into a parked truck
With an approximately six feet of fencing post through the window.
As I watched in horror the driver got out of the car mobile phone to the ear like it was just
another day. At this stage I would like to point out that this is not the first attempt
On my life and that I also received death threats on the answering machine. Which I may add
was passed to the Irish sectarian Police force and duly ignored.
There is a lot more - I have built up a large file over the last 17 years. My wife and I are
nervous wrecks; she finds it hard driving the car as she is always looking in the mirrors to see
if someone is trying to kill or harm us. The M50 gunman has upset us all. And the ignorant
plainclothes Gardai - I am on two lots of blood pressure tablets and nerve tablets proscribed
by my Doctor.
I get very little sleep at night and it's not uncommon for me to be at my computer at 3 a.m. as
I can't sleep. I am better up with a cup of tea. I also have to take painkillers for my back. The
above is only part of what has happened to our two families.
It's no joke to be sick and have to live on a war pension and have to put up with this.
Criminal neighbours and corrupt Garda Officers who could not give a damn if we lived or
died. The O'Sullivans are Bertie Ahern's relatives and belongs in jail.
I have a lot of letter-headed correspondence from the different Government departments. The
Gardai see nothing and hear nothing and do nothing.
The intimidation started in 1990 and has continued to date. From gunshots to brakes being
tampered with and death threats made on the answering machine. The tapes have been
handed over to police. The local police sergeant said: "If I hear another word out of you I will
find something to charge you with." For months we were followed around and generally
intimidated by the police from Rathcoole station. Who gave the order to put our family under
surveillance? We were treated like common criminals and not victims.
There are a lot of questions that need answering. Orders came from the very top - who gave
those orders? Who said that crime does not pay? We in the Protestant community are not
treated as equal citizens. (My bank statements and War Pension were steamed open and
pushed through the letterbox).
We do not have the same rights as other citizens: Shots fired into our home and the police
think the bullet holes are caused by rats. Anyone who served in the Armed Forces knows the
difference between two-legged rats and four-legged ones! The two-legged ones are related to
Government Ministers and are above the law. I was also run down by a car and the police
came up to charge me with obstruction.
1. Death threats made on the answering machine, tapes given to Gardai and never returned.
2. Part of the Ferguson 20 diesel tractor unscrewed causing the tractor to rev up out of control
while working in the field. I was nearly killed. That was after a meeting in Bertie Ahern's office
where we (George Hill, David Hill and the Rev M.Tardive) met to discuss discrimination
against Protestants.
3. The brakes were cut on our Ford Fiesta car, and we were nearly killed trying to get to
Church. My wife was driving at the time.
4. Back right hand wheel of our car was punctured every Sunday over a period of several
months.
5. A car driven by the O'Sullivans would try to block the way out of our property on a Sunday
to keep us from going to Church.
6. Run down on private property by Mrs O'Sullivan and charged with obstruction.
7. Cars driven onto our property at 3 in the morning skidding around blowing car horns,
screeching brakes and screams until we woke up and put the light on to see what was going
on.
8. As a result I phoned 999. It took 4 days to get the call answered.
9. Bank statements and RAF War Pension steamed open and crumpled up and put through
the letterbox.
10. Rocks thrown at our roof and a tile broken late at night.
11. Shots fired into our home and on Sundays for a long time.
12. Shots fired late one night when I was finishing off some painting outside; it was dark.
13. M50 Gunman on the way to do our shopping on a Saturday.
14. Noise nuisance: The use of scrambler motor bikes and a quad for the young fellow.
Revving up and down all the time, it's a nightmare.
15. When I took a photograph of the noise nuisance, she sent up her private plainclothes
Garda squad who abused me and threatened me with all kind of things. They said that I was
taking an unnatural interest in the neighbour's son and put me under caution. After a phone
call from our Baptist Pastor all charges were dropped. The Gardai here are pure scum and
have no manners.
16. Going around with a bucket with weed-killer and a paintbrush killing off my plants which
took years to grow. I caught him last year and he ran off.
17. Plants that I spent half the summer putting in stolen and months later he put in plants that
looked familiar. I grow a lot of my plants from slips so it's not too hard to identify them.
18. Knocking on the bedroom window late at night when the lights are out. I get up and
dressed to investigate, see nothing, then without warning the sky lights up with rockets and
crackers, thunder flashes.
There is a lot more - I have built up a large file over the last 17 years. My wife and I are
nervous wrecks, she finds it hard driving the car as she is always looking in the mirrors to see
if someone is trying to kill us. The M50 gunman has upset us all. And the ignorant
plainclothes Gardai - I am on two lots of blood pressure tablets and nerve tablets proscribed
by my Doctor.
I get very little sleep at night and it's not uncommon for me to be at my computer at 3 a.m. as
I can't sleep. I am better up with a cup of tea. I also have to take painkillers for my back. The
above is only part of what has happened to our two families.
It's no joke to be sick and have to live on a war pension and have to put up with this.
Criminal neighbours and corrupt Garda Officers who could not give a damn if we lived or
died. The O'Sullivans are Bertie Ahern's relatives and belong in jail.
I have a lot of letter-headed correspondence from the different Government departments. The
Gardai see nothing and hear nothing and do nothing.
Christmas 2006 we went to the Canary Islands as our nerves were at breaking point we were
followed around and photographed the same way we are when we go to our Church
Services in Tallaght Baptist Church. We are also followed around by Garda Helicopters
To and from Church services and when we maintain on our property.
Eg. A friend of mine from the Baptist Church was cutting some branches for me on our
Hedge he was up on a ladder at the time when a blue and white helicopter flew past our
property the turned around and flew back then hovered to see what we were doing.
This is nothing short of abuse by public office to further criminal pursuits of Bertie Aherns
Relatives.
Britain has apologised to Ireland for the Famine, the Pope has apologised for the atrocities
and crimes committed against the Huguenots. Is it not time for others to do likewise for the
violence and intimidation carried out against the Protestants of Ireland down the centuries?
It is too late to help those who suffered, but it would acknowledge that great wrongs were
perpetrated and must never happen again.
What has changed today in 2007?
Bring Mansfield and the O'Sullivans to Justice.
George Hill, and his wife have accused the Taoiseach Bertie Ahern of collusion with Garda
Inspectors in the Republic of Ireland to conceal and commit crimes. This has not been the
first time that Garda members, politicians like Bertie Ahern, or highly placed State officials,
have been accused of abusing the minority communities, "Human Rights" in the Irish
Republic.
Protestants like, Joe Patterson, George Hill and numerous others who have contacted the
UPMJ and who have bravely spoken out upon this subject are victims of a vicious campaign.
These individuals have sent letters to various organisations to no avail.
Political parties have been contacted (DUP) (UUP) (Bertie Ahern) (Finegael) (Civil Liberties
Groups) (Irish Council for Civil Liberties) (Unison Union) (Papers such as Belfast Telegraph)
and others have remained silent upon this subject.
A deliberate and highly orchestrated campaign by influential people in the Irish Republic and
other places are clearly involved in hiding evidence and protecting those who are practising
this bigoted sectarian policy.
Recently the Rev M.Tardive, George Hill and others met Bertie Ahern's officials to highlight
such ongoing abuse of Garda Collusion in hiding evidence, or of their criminal activity and the
policy of limited investigations. Or investigations that are destined to go nowhere.
On March 1, 1992, the Dublin newspaper Sunday World reported on the systematic
victimisation of a born again Christian couple by gangs of youths in Cork because of their
religious beliefs and for preaching the Gospel in the city and country towns. The husband was
shot through the head with a .22 rifle for preaching in the street, but survived. "I had to move
out of the city centre," he said, "because a man threatened to throw petrol over me and set me
alight. My children are terrified. They are afraid to go out into the street to play."
Burning our homes and Farm is a criminal offence in any Law in any civilised country And
any law enforcement that turns a blind eye to such criminal acts needs to be Seriously looked
at with a view to reforming or disbanding and the setting up of a new Non sectarian police
force which will represent all sections of our society. Protestants are second class citizens in
the Republic of Ireland, and every appeal I made to the Irish Government and the Gardai to
take steps to deal with those who threatened me and my family have so far been ignored.
"Garda see nothing and hear nothing and do nothing."
"If the Irish Government is sincere in its quest for a united Ireland, why has it denuded the
country of its own Irish Protestant citizens by denying them legal, human or civil rights?" it is
a sad reflection that Mr Ahern seemed more concerned with the human rights of some people
in Northern Ireland than he has with his own Irish Protestant citizens.
A Case for the Irish Government to solve.
George Hill
Crooksling
Brittas
Co. Dublin

[Kenneth T. Tellis]

I am surprised that anyone is expecting Islam to be tolerant in any way or form.

Even in Moorish Spain, Islam did not tolerate Christians and went about executing them. A case in point is the Christain Monk Perfectus, who being given a promise of immunity on a discussion of religion, was a week after a discussion with Islamic Scholars wiske away to have his head cut off, by order of the Kazi (Muslim judge).

My point is if you expect tolerance from Muslims, you are barking up the wrong tree. Whether it be Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Turkey, Syria or the Persian Gulf feudal states, do not expect any tolerance. If you are dreaming in clour, then remember that you will have to one day wake up to the reality of Islamic bigotry.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

Actually in early Jewish thought Islam is represented by Ishmael, which makes sense after all.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear Dr. Irene,

Thanks for the Jacob and Esau story. It helps explain my frustration with Israel's foreign policy. It's scary.

The "nation game" has been well documented; that is, relations between nations has been an open book for the last few thousand years. We, as a nation, will succeed or fail based on our ability to adapt. One's skills as a basketball player are useless on the soccer (football) field. Same thing applies to life in the Moslem Middle East.

You don't negotiate with Moslems as Jacob with Esau - you bite them first and hard.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

It is true that there is not much in the Bible about hell, known as 'sheol', or the 'pit'. But midrashic writings did go a bit further and certainly developed the concept of Satan, who in the biblical books is just the 'opposer'. Whereas later on he occasionally comes to signify evil.

There is also the concept of 'Gehinnom', which is the closest Hebrew comes to 'hell'.

It may be that post-biblical writers were influenced by the burgeoning Christianity that they experienced around them, and also by the way they were treated by these Christins, especially when Christianity became the adopted religion of Rome.

But it is true that 'hell' does not feature prominently within everyday Judaism. It is not usual to hear Jewish people talk about sending others to 'hell'. Usually, one tries first to placate,to use prayer, and then, finally as a last resort, resort to self-defence.

The classic story on this is Jacob and Esau (interestingly the latter came to be interpreted as 'Christianity' in post-biblical times).

First Jacob meets him with presents. Then Esau kisses him (the same word meaning 'bite' in Hebrew). This teaches that you should try to reconcile with your enemy, but also beware of their ultimate intentions.

Jacob also prays for assistance in dealing with Esau.

Finally, the last resort is war.

And I think that, on the whole, this is the philosophy behind what the young State of Israel, a secular State nonetheless, has done in its dealings with those who wish to destroy it.

The balancin gact between 'remember you were slaves in Egypt' and 'remember Amalek'(who destroyed Israel from behind) is certainly not easy.

[Kate]

Dear Emanuel

I am uncertain as to how comments on 'the afterlife' might be applied to my post?

"Dear Kate and Geoffrey"??!!

I do not concur with Mr Geoffrey Smith's opinions on any topic. Perhaps you intended to address: 'David and Geoffrey'?

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear Kate and Geoffrey,

The afterlife is a topic that has not captured the interest of Israel's most sophisticated theologians in the last four thousand years. Of course, better Bible scholars than I may point to chapter and verse negating my point. I just don't see the loving care of describing Heaven and Hell one sees in Dante or Milton.

The Hebrew Bible depends on two things for group discipline: self restraint and the external enemy. That is, "sinfulness" will be punished by having foreign invasions, not Hell. Excess is restrained by teaching the Jewish equivalent of the Golden Mean. My reading of "Hell" in Jewish writing is something akin to Limbo for a couple of years at most. This is something that your average white criminal could tolerate with a shrug.

As a nationalist, I'm interested in the concept of the "afterlife" purely from a pragmatic viewpoint. If it helps to create a better soldier, then it's time for a new Milton to rise within Israel.

[Kate]

Dear Emanuel

I think I agree with you here - "ignorance, fear, and selfishness account for a nation's unhappiness yet God gets blamed" - only in part.

It is my experience (and reading) that 'fear' and obedience is inculcated in the unlearned or 'ignorant' by some of those who are God's self-appointed representatives on earth.

It is taught that God is all-powerful and all-knowing - that his anger is to be feared, that he will punish the unrighteous - ergo the acceptance of the ignorant that "national unhappiness", personal tragedy or poverty is God's Will.

God as such, is not blamed; the people are blamed for failure of faith or failure of obedience to His Will.

Where we agree is "selfishness". The selfishness of the powerful few in the face of mass deprivation and suffering.

I was not aware of the shipping of Irish children to Catholics in Mexico but it is no surprise.

The Dublin 1913 Lockout, lasted seven months; Dublin workers were the poorest in the British Isles and tens of thousands faced starvation. The Roman Catholic Church supported the employers.

A scheme whereby the children of Irish strikers would be temporarily looked after by British trade unionists was blocked by the RC Church, which objected that Catholic children would be subject to Protestant or atheist influences. Priests forcibly removed children as their parents attempted to put them on the ship to England.

In support of the strikers and with contempt for the employers and priests WB Yeats wrote:
September 1913

WHAT need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone;
For men were born to pray and save:
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave;
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.

'Romantic' here refers to that vision of 'Celtic' unity you spoke of in a previous post. The names listed are all men of the 1798 rebellion.

[Geoffrey Smith]

David Smith's account of the murder of those Christians in Turkey reminded me of the rampage by the Korean, Cho Seung-Hui. I cannot think of a more clear case of Satanic possession than that described by Mr Smith. No normal person behaves in this manner, certainly no Christian or Muslim who truly believes in the brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God.

[David Smith]

Emanuel:
'Sorry for your loss... You can forgive those animals but the mindset is still there. Your forgiveness will do nothing to change them.'

Thank you for your kind comment.

I don't entirely agree with you on the above, however. As the letter said: '..this comment of Susanne Tilman has changed lives. One columnist wrote of her comment, “She said in one sentence what 1000 missionaries in 1000 years could never do.”'

I have known many instances of people being brought to Christ and turned around because of the loving and altruistic behaviour of Christians, or their evidently unshakeable belief in an unseen God in the face of torture and death. I suppose the first to be impacted in this way was the centurion at the foot of the cross who heard Jesus say, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and whose own response was: "Surely this man was the Son of God." Amongst others were those who, seeing Cranmer and Ridley going to the stake, were impressed that: 'they looked as if they were going to their weddings.'

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

RE the "declining Christians"

The number of Arab Christians has increased in Israel, the only place in the Middle East where this is so.

However, it's more convenient to demonize the Jews and ignore the Arab treatment of minorities within Islam. The Gaza Strip, The West Bank, Bethlehem is under the operational control of the PLO. There, the state of affairs is the result of Moslem terror.

But, hey, they, the Moslems, would rather cut their noses to spite their faces. Theis is seen around the world and they like to set up their tents among the "unbelievers" while the dole is good. Suit yourself.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear David Smith,

Sorry for your loss.

You can forgive those animals but the mindset is still there. Your forgiveness will do nothing to change them. However, if having "martyrs" is important to you, they'll help you out.

[joe]

"As an Arab Palestinian Christian I never consider myself to be part of a minority group, nor do I expect to be treated as “dhimmi,” part of a group formally protected under Islamic law. Arab Palestinian Christians are an integral part of our Arab Palestinian society.Some have asked: “Why are the Palestinian Christians emigrating from their homeland where they have lived for two thousand years?” My reply is that the unstable political situation, the continued illegal occupation and the unbearable economic hardships are the reasons for that. Palestinian Christians do not see that they can have a future in the midst of war and violence. They want to see a future based on justice, peace, reconciliation, in which they live together with other religions, cultures and nations. They follow what Our Lord Jesus Christ taught: “I have come to give you life, and life abundantly.”

Bishop Dr Munib A. Younan, Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land and the Vice-President of the Lutheran World Federation.

"Christians are part of Palestinian society, and the Palestinians are Christians and Muslims. No one is going to flee because of Islamic influence, but because of the lack of work, or the political tension provoked by the curfew. But there is no Muslim persecution of Christians, and in fact they share the same hope of one day having an independent state".

Michel Shabbah, Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem

"Christian Palestinians face the same harsh occupation as Muslims: movement restrictions, withholding of tax receipts by Israel, discrimination, land confiscation, powerlessness and oppression through the bureaucracy (visas, permits, planning permission, etc.). Apart from a few isolated incidents,
they have not been persecuted by Muslims. They have been particularly hard hit by the economic decline, especially the collapse of tourism and the restrictions in working outside Palestine, and because they have generally had better contacts outside Palestine it has been easier for them to emigrate."

Jerry Marshall, Transformational Business Network - frequent visitor to Bethlehem and particularly the charismatic evangelical community.

"Yes Christians are being persecuted in Palestine. There are sporadic
instances from Islamists but these are usually family feuds not religious in origin but these are exploited by Israeli propagandists and Christian Zionists.

The majority of Palestinian Christians who have left Palestine have done so because of Israel's occupation - the annexation of their land, demolition of their homes, destruction of their livelihoods and erection of the Separation barrier denying them access to their land, jobs, schools and hospitals. In Hebrew it is called Hafrada - meaning separation. The Dutch Africana word is the same - the parallels with Apartheid South Africa are obvious except in
South Africa the white government subsidised the Bantustans."

Stephen Sizer, Vicar of Christ Church, Virginia Water, UK

Fran - as you said, "I am sorry that you are not prepared to look yourself for the evidence that is there.

There's none so blind as those who will not see. Why should anyone provide you with any personal contacts having shown your refusal to accept reports which do not fit in with what I can now only call your own prejudice."

I have two degrees, I am able to assess evidence. I asked you to provide witness and reliable references. You have not done that. Why should I believe you over these?

Funnily enough, I also can spend two seconds using google and find any number of references that support my position. I am not interested in scoring points, I am interested in the truth.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear Kate,

Ignorance, fear , and selfishness account for a nation's unhappiness yet God gets blamed. What has God to do with an expatriate German assuming the role of Agent to whom you pay a monthly rent? Please.

Those who like to rule usually start by manipulating women and children. I mentioned Jewish orphans. I was surprised to read about Irish orphans or illegitimate children shipped off to Australia as a country-stocking device. That is a very clumsy way to do the job. Aren't there convicts to send any more?

Something similar happened in America re Irish children. In the late 19th century, foundlings and bastards of the Potato Famine survivors in New York City were shipped by rail to the extreme Southwest into the care of Mexican families. This was not looked on kindly by the non Catholic whites.

Abortion - the most drastic way for a woman to rebel yet the most controlled by religion and society.

[David Smith]

J Pierce:
'Would somebody please explain to me, exactly how religion is a force for "good" in this world?'

I recently received a detailed account of this event from a member of the church that the three victims were a part of. Here is a part of it:

"Dear friends,
This past week has been filled with much sorrow. Many of you have heard by now of our devastating loss here in an event that took place in Malatya, a Turkish province 300 miles northeast of Antioch, the city where believers were first called Christians (Acts 11:26).

On Wednesday morning, April 18, 2007, 46 year old German missionary and father of three Tilman Geske prepared to go to his office, kissing his wife goodbye taking a moment to hug his son and give him the priceless memory, “Goodbye, son. I love you.”

Tilman rented an office space from Zirve Publishing where he was preparing notes for the new Turkish Study Bible. Zirve was also the location of the Malatya Evangelist Church office. A ministry of the church, Zirve prints and distributes Christian literature to Malatya and nearby cities in Eastern Turkey. In another area of town, 35 year old Pastor Necati Aydin, father of two, said goodbye to his wife, leaving for the office as well. They had a morning Bible Study and prayer meeting that some other believers in town would also be attending. Ugur Yuksel likewise made his way to the Bible study.

On the other side of town, five young men all under 20 years old put into place final arrangements for their ultimate act of faith, living out their love for Allah and hatred of infidels who they felt undermined Islam.

These young men, one of whom is the son of a mayor in the Province of Malatya, are part of a tarikat, or a group of “faithful believers” in Islam. Tarikat membership is highly respected here; it’s like a fraternity membership. In fact, it is said that no one can get into public office without membership in a tarikat. These young men all lived in the same dorm, all preparing for university entrance exams.

The young men got guns, breadknives, ropes and towels ready for their final act of service to Allah. They knew there would be a lot of blood. They arrived in time for the Bible Study, around 10 o’clock.

They arrived, and apparently the Bible Study began. Reportedly, after Necati read a chapter from the Bible the assault began. The boys tied Ugur, Necati, and Tilman’s hands and feet to chairs and as they videoed their work on their cellphones, they tortured our brothers for almost three hours*

[Details of the torture--
* Tilman was stabbed 156 times, Necati 99 times and Ugur’s stabs were too numerous to count. They were disemboweled, and their intestines sliced up in front of their eyes. They were emasculated and watched as those body parts were destroyed. Fingers were chopped off, their noses and mouths and anuses were sliced open. Possibly the worst part was watching as their brothers were likewise tortured. Finally, their throats were sliced from ear to ear, heads practically decapitated.]

(When the police arrived… ) Tilman and Necati had been slaughtered, practically decapitated with their necks slit from ear to ear. Ugur’s throat was likewise slit and he was barely alive.

In an act that hit front pages in the largest newspapers in Turkey, Susanne Tilman in a television interview expressed her forgiveness. She did not want revenge, she told reporters. “Oh God, forgive them for they know not what they do,” she said, wholeheartedly agreeing with the words of Christ on Calvary (Luke 23:34).

In a country where blood-for-blood revenge is as normal as breathing, many many reports have come to the attention of the church of how this comment of Susanne Tilman has changed lives. One columnist wrote of her comment, “She said in one sentence what 1000 missionaries in 1000 years could never do.”

This we know. Christ Jesus was there when our brothers were giving their lives for Him. He was there, like He was when Stephen was being stoned in the sight of Saul of Tarsus.

Someday the video of the deaths of our brothers may reveal more to us about the strength that we know Christ gave them to endure their last cross, about the peace the Spirit of God endowed them with to suffer for their beloved Savior. But we know He did not leave their side. We know their minds were full of Scripture strengthening them to endure, as darkness tried to subdue the unsubduable Light of the Gospel. We know, in whatever way they were able, with a look or a word, they encouraged one another to stand strong. We know they knew they would soon be with Christ.

We don’t know the details. We don’t know the kind of justice that will or will not be served on this earth.

But we pray-- and urge you to pray-- that someday at least one of those five boys will come to faith because of the testimony in death of Tilman Geske, who gave his life as a missionary to his beloved Turks, and the testimonies in death of Necati Aydin and Ugur Yuksel, the first martyrs for Christ out of the Turkish Church."

These people are (and were) true Christians, and I think that their words and actions themselves answer the question as to how true Christianity and true believers (as opposed to a whole range of false religions - some of which call themselves Christian - and those who subscribe to them) can be a force for good in this world.

[Fran]

Joe

The links worked for me yesterday.

I am sorry that you are not prepared to look yourself for the evidence that is there.

There's none so blind as those who will not see. Why should anyone provide you with any personal contacts having shown your refusal to accept reports which do not fit in with what I can now only call your own prejudice.

[Observer]

To Joe, Kate and others:

May I suggest

www.jihadwatch.org

or

www.dhimmiwatch.org

They will provide you with factually based articles regarding the plight of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Moslems due to the teachings of the Koran, the ahadith and the Sira, as faithfully carried out by Moslems worldwide.

[Kate]

Dear Emanuel: thank you for your response.

What is the source of Celtic strife? The short answer is religion. The long answer is colonialism and religion - English superiority and RC theocracy. Power establishments on both sides.

Celtic nationalism - Unity of Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter surfaced - in 1798. It was instigated and led by Irish Protestants. I think you already know something of that.

Wolfe Tone (Church of Ireland) is likely the best known of the leaders. Dr William Drennan (Presbyterian) was the brains behind the formation of the Society of United Irishmen (1781). They were inspired by the French and American revolutions. A wonderful vision.

In the history of Ireland it was THE most glorious aspiration. As always in these things (even among the Jews) the people were divided - those who put unity and prosperity (a sovereign nation) before their own personal interests and those who feared change. The French promised help but they never came. On Vinegar Hill, "Terraced thousands died, shaking scythes at cannon" [Seamus Heaney]

Presbyterian and Catholic communities were devastated by vicious government reprisals. Thousands of United men emigrated. The Irish parliament was dissolved and the Act of Union passed in 1801. British rule was established. It lasted until 1922.

Charles Stewart Parnall, leader of the Nationalist Party, died in 1891. He was the last chance. Church of Ireland Protestant but loved by the Catholic masses - the 'Uncrowned King of Ireland'. He was destroyed by the Catholic Church - why? - he was a Prod who broke the rules. He dared love and marry a divorcee! Another complicated tale of plotting and betrayal.

Re. Israel - have just, in the light of your recent posts on this thread, re-read David Ben-Dor: 'The Darkest Chapter'. I do understand and respect your thinking.

[joe]

Fran, first your links don't work.

Second, I particularly asked for references by reliable human rights organisations. I also can pick random links from the internet to support my position, this proves nothing.

Third, I asked for contacts in the UK who can verify the claims not for people in the West Bank.

Since you can't do that, there is precious little evidence of the abuse you say is rampant.

[Fran]

Tamil

Hideous.

[Fran]

Joe wrote

"Fran - yes, there are attacks on church property. Undoubtably true, although this has nothing at all to do with attacks on Internet cafes as far as I can see.

But the question is whether these are isolated incidents or a campaign of intimidation encouraged by the PA. I also accept that the situation is completely different in Gaza.

Send me the contacts for people I can talk to about these reports and I will gladly change my mind if the evidence is there."

The evidence for the harrassment and persecution of Palestinian Christians at the hands of gangs and the PA is there, Joe. It's out on the net for anyone to find.

Try here
http://www.c4rpme.org/bin/articles.cgi?Cat=christians&Subcat=cpa&ID=306

here

http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=729

and here

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48064

for starters. Sadly, Action for the Church in Need has removed the article in which the parish priest of Ramallah said that Christians were leaving the town because some local Muslims were making it clear that they were not wanted.

But as for sending you names of contacts, you just don't seem to get it. Palestinian Christians are terrified tell others about the persecution they experience lest their identities are made known to their persecutors.

Look what's happened to poor Alan Johnston, whose reports from Gaza always presented the problems there in a light favourable to Palestinians. What do you think would happen to Palestinians from the minority Christian community who reported intimidation from their neighbours.

This I will say. An official from a well known charity which exists to relieve the suffering of the Persecuted Church, admitted to me that they have been begged by Palestinian Christian pastors not to report the intimidation and violence suffered by the Christian community at the hands of their neighbours and the PA for fear of retaliation.

[Tamil]

Widow of slain Christian: 'Forgive them'
'She said what 1,000 missionaries in 1,000 years could never do'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55426

Tilman was stabbed 156 times, Necati 99 times and Ugur’s stabs were too numerous to count. They were disemboweled, and their intestines sliced up in front of their eyes. They were emasculated and watched as those body parts were destroyed. Fingers were chopped off, their noses and mouths and anuses were sliced open. Possibly the worst part was watching as their brothers were likewise tortured. Finally, their throats were sliced from ear to ear, heads practically decapitated."

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

A few more anecdotes on this subject. I've just come back from the dentist, never a pleasant experience, but they were so nice about everything that I got chatting with the manager.

In answer to my question about the ethnic make-up of staff there - which he found very odd by the way - he told me that two of the dentist were Arabs, one Christian and one Muslim and that two of the dental assistants were also Arabs.

While waiting for my turn in the chair, I was reading the Jerusalem Post, in which the President of Palestinian University Al-Quds, Sari Nusseibeh, (who is also against all boycotts, by the way) said the following:

'One of the characteristic of the Jewish or the Israeli population is that they are capable of making judgments that are a little bit self-critical. They don't necessarily fall into the trap of building up a certain stereotype of the other side.... The fact that they have a major Peace Now movement - the fact that they can be critical of their government - illustrates this. The Palestininas, on the other hand, don't seem able to do this.'

Asked whether there was a religious reason for the differences between Arabs and Jews in the ability to be self-critical and acknowledte the 'other', Nusseibh replied:

If you already have a submissive mind-set, you will take what comes from your religion to reinforce it. But if you have developed the ability to be self-critical and free in your mind, you wil also address yours and other religions in the same way.'

.... We Palestinians have not succeeded in creating something of which we can be proud, or which can be attractive. So why should anybody wish to come and live here... I agree that we complain a lot and that we are not exercising control of our lives in a rational way.'

Jerusalem Post, April 27th, 2007

[Observer]

Mr Appel has touched indirectly upon a subject which I believe should be a separate topic on Miss Gledhill's excellent site:

www.frontpagemagazine.com?Articles?ReadArticle.asp?ID=28049

"The Palestinianization of Europe"
by Jamie Gloazov interviewing Bat Ye'or, the world's foremost authority on dhimmitude.
April 26, 2007

"Palestinianism" is at the root of Europe's decadence. It is an ideology based on a replacement theology whereby Palestine replaces Israel. As it has been conceived and instigated together by European and Arab intellectuals and politicians, it combines the worst of both cultures. For the Arab and Muslim world, Palestinianism embodies the ideology and aims of jihad against a rebellious dhimmi people. It is therefore based on a Muslim culture and theology that deny territorial independence and sovereignty to any non-Muslim people.
...The European trend has added to it traditional Christian antisemitism which condemns the Jews to perpetual exile till they convert. The Palestinian war against Israel, strongly encouraged by many in Europe, came as a magnificent opportunity to continue and maintain the culture of hate and denigration against the Jews...Europe (under the EU) has been the biggest supporter and subsidizer for the Palestinians, as well as their ideological teachers....The consequences for Europe are manifold, profound and it seems irreversible. Palestinianism has been the most effective tool to divide, weaken and destroy the West....Whatever Europeans may believe today, their whole spiritual and humanistic cultures come from the biblical prophets, from the liberation of the Hebrews from slavery, and the promotion of human equality and dignity, from the salvific virtue of humility, self-criticism and the asking of forgiveness, from the praise of peace and the separation of religion from the state, and so on....Joining the jihadist camp involves the suppression of those links that structure and support Christianity.

This is a long and perceptive article and also ties in the anti-Americanism and anti-capitalism which is so damaging to Europe's greatest interests and needs, and I believe this site is a perfect one in which it can be discussed rationally and constructively. I realise this has a political aspect to it, but the implications strike at the very heart of our beliefs about ourselves, our world and our God.

Please consider it, Miss Gledhill, and once again, thank you for the opportunity to blog here. This site is a real beacon in our world.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America,

Dear Kate

Your comments re Ulster touched me. Bloodshed is the greatest argument that the irreligious can make against traditional religion.

This is a Jew's view. Celtic nationalism would solve the religious problem. What is the source of Celtic strife? That Henry the VIII didn't have enough juice in Rome to get a divorce? That his Spanish father in law had more influence with the Bishop of Rome?

A moron with a minimal historical knowledge could see through the tactic of using religion to divide and conquer the Celts. Even better, using one set of Celts to bash the other while sitting in London sipping port.

American tactics in Iraq are going to fail based on the low church Protestant ideals that "all" seek the same "self evident truths". Rather, the English tactics in Ireland would work very well. It's tragic for us that the tactics or previous Roman tactics were never studied well. It's the best argument for a classical education.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

I have just heard from a Catholic priest who recently stayed with a Catholic friend who lives near to Haifa. He travelled around extensively whilst he was here.He was also shown the Wall.

He told me that he had been a priest in Ulster and that the wall there was far worse than what he had experienced in Israel and that the treatment afforded to people going in and out of it in Ireland was extremely severe.

I asked him why he thought Israel was being singled out for opprobrium. Was it mere ignorance, I asked.

No, he said, It is anti-semitism, even among my own, even among some Catholics.

By the way, Yad Vashem has a section devoted to the Armenian massacre (s).

[Kate]

Joe: "Please show me somewhere else where walls are built around villages and towns, preventing people from having any movement."

In 1974 thousands of Cypriots were displaced and lost land and homes as a result of the Turkish invasion. The wall ensured they would not return. The problem is ongoing. Nobody cares. Nobody confronts the Turks. Why?

The Armenians? Again the Turks? Everybody forgets. But not the Armenians. I met several when I was in Turkey - lovely people. They are very conscious that their 'time of terror' and genocide has been ignored but they do not understand WHY? Nor do I.

In 1970s Northern Ireland, walls were built which cut off whole areas of Belfast and Derry. Crossing through or between 'camps' was as hazardous as it is Israel. Army and police patrols on every road. Emergency services stopped and turned back by militant vigilantes. People died, houses were burned down, snipers shot people daring to cross a street. Small country villages deemed predominantly Protestant were blown asunder.

Displacement - of both Catholics and Protestants - was a daily occurrence. Thousands lost their homes. My country town was invaded by Protestant refugees. Other small towns by Catholic refugees. In border areas, Protestants were terrorised off their land - shot from behind stone walls by Catholic neighbours. The poet John Hewitt famously asked the PIRA: 'Why are you committing genocide against my people'.

Where were the human rights activists like yourself? I will tell you. They were in the Bring Home the Troops movement. They were willing for the Protestants of NI to be wiped out in favour of the 'Romantic' vision of a Provisional IRA fascist state.

It is too easy Joe. Too historically capital 'R' Romantic. The lure of Lawrence of Arabia has morphed into an incurable disease. The practice of taqiyya (double-speak) has won the day.

Unfortunately, it sits well with the oldest hatred and the ancient calumnies against the Jews as a people. I will keep asking.

Why are only Palestinians deemed a 'special' case? Why not Tibetans, Greek Cypriots, Irish Protestants and Catholics; all those exiles from terror domiciled in India, England, America, Canada, Australia? Why are these people accepted with nonchalance as permanently disenfranchised?

What responsibilities do the Arab states surrounding Israel carry for the permanent statelessness of Palestinians? Why is that question never asked. WHY the shocking amnesia on Islamic historical obsession with conquest, or their support of Hitler in WWII?

I would suggest those with a genuine interest in peace and justice in the ME have a moral duty to investigate reality. It is no longer The Seven Pillars of Wisdom:

"A man who gives himself to be a possession of aliens leads a Yahoo life, having bartered his soul to a brute-master. He is not of them. He may stand against them ... Or, after my model, he may imitate them so well that they spuriously imitate him back again. Then he is giving away his own
environment: pretending to theirs; and pretences are hollow, worthless things. In neither case does he do a thing of himself, nor a thing so clean as to be his own (without thought of conversion)...."
[TE Lawrence: Seven Pillars ...]

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear Joe,

Schindler is not a hero but a clean up man.

If you don't get it by now, let me restate. I'm not a grateful person. I'm not grateful that, after you beat me to a pulp, you come back and take me to emergency and I wind up with no arms and no legs. That was the fate of European Jewry.

The shameful thing about Germans and their camp followers is their basic dishonesty. If I perpetrate a great injury to my enemies, I'd dance on their graves. They knew they committed an ignoble act unworthy of soldiers so they were the first Holocaust Deniers.

The Arabs were in bed with the Germans from the beginning for their own reasons. They picked up Nazi propaganda methods because the lying feature of it was in tune with their own mindset and culture.

I have my personal list of people and nations that I dislike. That's normal. What's abnormal is to commit cultural and national treason because of personal dislikes. Specifically, I would never side with my country's enemies because of my hatred of Jews. It's consistent to say "all #$%&@ out". I can respect that. It's not logical to say that Arab Moslem culture is ok to establish itself in your society with all its demands and focus negatively on Israel, a people that want nothing from you.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

Joe, I am sure that that some people in Hebron protected Jews, but so what? So did some people in Poland, in Germany and even in Lithuania, where 96% of the Jewish population was exterminated by Lithuanians under the nose of the Nazis, or even before they arrived.

Why shouldn't Arabs in Hebron protect their neighbours? I always protected my Catholic school-mate when she was being attacked by ignoramuses.

It doesn't make people special, it just makes them normal. Schindler was normal, not heroic. Most of the Germans were indifferent. That is not normal. And many were full of hate. That is abnormal.

The problem is that the norm in the areas now run by HAMAS is to want to destroy us. Please open your eyes, Joe, and stop sentimentalizing for a second.

Regarding your continued taunts about Bethlehemw, what I have been trying to explain is that I have been in meetings with people from Bethlehem. I cannot go into further detail because these people's lives might be in danger if I did.

I also remember the Christian mayor of Bethlehem begging Israel not to let the city get into Muslim hands and to remain under the jurisdiction of Jewish Israel. It was the Oslo Accords which changed all that. So, let us be clear, Bethlehem, Gaza and the other Palestinian areas are now under HAMAS and not under Israeli control at all any more.

As for all the other things you think I have suggested, please be assured that I forgive you.

Yes, I do know about Betzelem etc. Israel is a democracy and all sorts of opinions and groups are allowed, including former Anglican Bishop Riah, whose poisonous utterances did more than anyone to cause the worst disruption in Anglican-Jewish relations for about 50 years at least. And it wasn't I who said so, but Canon Andrew White, vicar in Iraq.

But one doesn't have to believe everything that is said all the time by everyone to everybody. And very few Israelis understand the theological underpinnings of the message that both Riah and now HAMAS are sending out to the world and the not-so-subtle anti-semitism which pervades them.

Luckily, I am in that position, which is why I can talk with some authority about this and don't have to listen to anecdotal evidence about a or b. Some of us see the big picture - and it isn't pretty!

To a meeting of the Foundation for Reconciliation in the Middle East, held in the House of Lords, April 2006, Andrew White said that dialogue was now off the cards because Hamas refused point blank to negoiate in any way with Jews, let alone Israelis and because of their Charter which aims to destroy Israel.

For those who don't know - and I didn't till recently - Israel is not the size of Wales, to which it is normally compared. Rather, it is the size of Cornwall, plus Devon, plus a tiny bit of Dorset.

Israel has a good public transport system. This means that anyone can go from Haifa to Jerusalem, Tel Aviv or wherever in a comparatively short time by bus or train. This means that you don't have to be stuck in Haifa and you can meet and talk with others around the country, including members of minority groups.

In any case, there are plenty of people at Haifa University who are concerned about the plight of the Palestinians. I think we all are.

The question is how to solve their problems without endangering the lives of those who they want to destroy.

I feel that Emanuel has a good point, very sad though it is to admit it. Jews in the diaspora- and I include Britain in that blanket term - have been keeping their heads down for at least 10 years if not longer. This is what the community is told to do by the people running it - and for some of us that just isn't on any more.

Emanuel is absolutely right too that Jews have survived in diaspora by being dependent on the good-will of others. There isn't much good-will around in Europe at the moment.

I do hope that situation changes and meantime, Joe, maybe you could channel some of your considerable energy into helping the Jews of the UK and Ireland, as well as (I wouldn't dream of saying 'instead of') constantly championing the supporters of suicide bombers and Jew-haters, or even worse, people who harbour the latter in their midst

Thanks, Emanuel for your support on this, and to Fran and to Kate.

By the way, Joe, this isn't a 'Jewish conspiracy'. I have never met Fran, Kate or Emanuel, but hope I do one day.

The brilliance of blogs!

Now, do I get my champagne, I wonder, because I feel I thoroughly deserve it.

[joe]

Emauel, please educate me because I don't understand. Is not Schindler considered a hero? If so, why are not the families who resisted the Hebron massacre also considered heros?

Is it not rather convenient to whitewash all as being extremists?

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear all,

As usual, the topic starts with Moslem bloodthirstiness and it ends up with Jews being advised by "concerned people" to assume the fetal position. Sorry, no.

It's amazing to me the mindset that starts with the premise that I can go into your house, slit your family's throat, and be awarded a prize for overlooking you. That is what happened in the various Arab massacres fo Jews in the land of Israel ( and in Europe ). There may have been some sheltering but why the slaughter in the first place? The premise in those diseased minds is that somehow we had it coming and Arab "noblesse oblige" spared some of us. We're playing it differently from now on.

Retreat behind "ghetto walls" in the Land of Israel is no guarantee of peace, just the opposite. Lebanon, Gaza are sources of continual attacks at different times. They themselves state that their goal is at best a truce but our destruction and subjection the overall goal. Wise up.

[joe]

Kate, your general point is correct - in that there are other walls.

Please show me somewhere else where walls are built around villages and towns, preventing people from having any movement. Preventing people from getting to their own olive fields. Allowing people to die at checkpoints because they cannot get to hospitals in time.

I am aware of the situation in Tibet and am also involved in campaigns around that issue. I have been involved in human rights campaigns about genocide in Sudan for more than 10 years.

I have been to Cyprus, and whilst there is clearly bad feeling between Greek and Turkish communities, this is nothing compared to the lot of the average Palestinian. Not to mention the millions of displaced refugees that are still in 'temporary' camps after 60 years.

[joe]

It seems that even Israeli historians accept that some of the 90% of Hebronite Jews who were not executed in the awful events in 1929 were protected by Arabs families in Hebron.

Quote "A few Arabs did try to help the Jews. Nineteen Arab families saved dozens, maybe even hundreds of Jews. Zmira Mani wrote about an Arab named Abu Id Zaitoun who brought his brother and son to rescue her and her family. The Arab family protected the Manis with their swords, hid them in a cellar along with other Jews who they had saved, and found a policeman to escort them safely to the police station at Beit Romano."

67 people died. But that does not in any way justify the brutality of the Hebron settlers today or even the Goldstein massacre which also killed innocents at prayer.

Irene, I am simply pointing out that from Haifa your experience is of a totally different order to that experienced by Palestinians. Please do not use this anti-semitic rhetoric against me. I do not support any violence from anyone and I certainly do not support Hamas.

Go back to the green line, take down the illegal settlements, roads and walls in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.

I recognise your right to exist and right to expression. Recognise the same for the Palestinian and everyone will support you.

Fran - yes, there are attacks on church property. Undoubtably true, although this has nothing at all to do with attacks on Internet cafes as far as I can see.

But the question is whether these are isolated incidents or a campaign of intimidation encouraged by the PA. I also accept that the situation is completely different in Gaza.

Send me the contacts for people I can talk to about these reports and I will gladly change my mind if the evidence is there.

Currently I have spoken to many Christians from the UK who have been there, church leaders and ordinary christians. Kindly support your argument with reports by international human rights organisations such as Btselem or Human Rights Watch (who incidentally do report about Palestinian human rights abuses, such as report) or Amnesty International .

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

Kate, thank you very much for mentioning the Tibetans. When I met the Dalai Lama, at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony in Oslo in 1991, he asked me to help the world understand the plight of the Tibetan people - and the Burmese - because in his view Jewish people could really understand what the Tibetans were going through.

When my husband and I were invited to meet him again in May 2004, just before he was to be awarded an honorary doctorate in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral by Liverpool John Moores University, we told him that our daughter had emigrated to Israel during the Intifada.

Our daughter had worked with the Dalai Lama and had founded the 'Tibetan-Jewish Youth Exchange Programme with his blessing and backing. Ruth was the very first journalist to take an interest and this led to interest in the Jewish community in the UK

TJYE is still going strong and you can google it if you wish.

The Dalai Lama beamed and looked really happy at the fact she had emigrated to Jerusalem, saying that it was her land, after all.

I should point out that the BBC were recording this meeting - we wondered why the conversation was being filmed.

When we then said that her work involved trying to do with Palestinians and Jews what she had done in India and London with Tibetans and Jews, i.e. more rapprochement and mutual understanding, he said he admired her tremendously, and it would be a very difficult task.

So once again, thank you very much for bringing up the subject of Tibet. I am re-reading 'The Jew and the Lotus' in preparation for a class I am giving here in Haifa, entitled 'Judaism and the Meaning of Life'.

The book is about the visit to Dharamsala of a group of disparate Jewish leaders and experts from the USA and Israel at the invitation of the Dalai Lama in 1990. They learned about Buddhism and he learned about Judaism.

It is by Rodger Kamenetz. It is extremely good on the various facets of Judaism and how encountering another religion can help teach you so much about your own.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear Dr. Irene,

A common problem I see affecting the psychological and religious life of Jews outside of Israel is their small number.

I recently read an article about South African Jewry and the pattern is the same as in the UK. It's a community of 80,000 in a sea of Blacks, Afrikaners, and Moslems. They are continually on the defensive, as British Jewry, vis a vis the media, govt., and academia. They're pictured as optimistic re they're future but it's the usual powerlessness - their status can be snuffed out in two minutes as the case of white Rhodesians and Mozambequians. This translates into a "religious" outlook which requires continual attempts to appeal to the majority's goodness. It's a losing game in my view.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

I am afraid that your attempts to keep me in my place will just not work, Joe.

You seem to have not understood. I have met quite a few people from Bethlehem, and as I said, the problem of access is not our problem.

As for Hebron, the 1929 pogrom against its Jews was the worst in the history of the area.

Your conversations with one or two people are really of no interest. Your bullying tactics on this blog will not work. We do not have to prove ourselves to anyone, and if you are concerned about the situation for the Arabs of Hebron, Gaza and Bethlehem, then you should remember that it is they who voted for the party which is currently in power.

No-one is ever going to tell the Jewish people again to keep silent and that their views don't count.

I note that you are not in the least interested in the losses suffered by the Jewish population of Israel and the aftermath of the evacuation of Gaza.

Even the British government, which you seem to despise so much (nearly as much as you despise us?) has concluded from a cross-Party report that one of the problems of the anti-semitic discourse prevalent at the moment in the UK is the lack of context to describe events which take place in Israel and its surrounds.

Have you ever wondered why there are not exactly many Jewish contributors to this blog? The only other one in much evidence comes from the USA.

One of the people who used to contribute a fair bit to this blog has given up and is emigrating to live opposite me in Haifa in the next couple of months and there are many many like her in Britain.

So, ironically, what your tactics and those of others like you is engendering is more Jewish emigration from Britain to Israel.

[Kate]

Joe: my general point is that these walls are not uncommon - the Cyprus wall is comparable in kind to that in Israel - loss of property, land, displacement.

Who cares? Who protested? Who protested at similar walls in Ulster? Why are the Saudis and the Spanish allowed to wall themselves in and others out without protest from human rights groups? Who is vocal and outraged about the displacement and torture inflicted on the Tibetans?

It is, I think, legitimate to note that ONLY Israel draws opprobrium. Only Israel is defined as a pariah in the United Nations whilst Mugabe, Saudi, Darfur et al get a free pass. WHY?

[Fran]

Joe

I too have visited Bethlehem privately and intimidation and persecution of Christians in Bethlehem was confirmed by contacts there, including forcing Christians to pay protection money to mafia-style gangs and terrorist cells under pain of the destruction of life and property.

Harrassment of Christians within the Palestinian Authority over years is a matter of public record. Information can be accessed easily through articles such as the one Irene references, from courageous Arab journalists such as Khaled Abu Toameh and in reports and studies such as the US State Department's annual report on human rights abuses.

Harrassment of Palestinian Christians takes several forms - confiscation of land, poor access to justice in the PA law courts. Harrassment - rape even - of Christian women and girls by Moslem young men, and threats to property.

Christians in Gaza and Ramallah report rises recently in the number of threats and attacks on property as the Islamisation programme promised by Hamas gains strength. Attacks on Church property and internet cafes over the past few weeks in the Gaza strip bear witness to this.

Irene is too generous to Britain over the Hebron massacre of 1929. It is true that it was Arabs who actually carried out the attack on the Jewish community, which had existed continuously in the town for several thousand years. However, successive British governors and Mandate officials had explictly encouraged Arabs in Palestine to attack Jewish communities in order to persuade the British Government that they would never accept Jewish sovereignty over any part of Mandated Palestine.

Their actions wer in direct contravention of the San Remo agreement under which the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate in Palestine, and led to the Arab conviction that if they were only persistent and violent enough, then the world would eventually decide that supporting the existence of a Jewish State would be too much trouble.

Unfortunately, such tactics seem to be effective still. It is depressing to read of nations and individuals who, whilst welcoming and affirming Palestinian nationalism, condemn Jewish aspirations for national self-determination on their historic homelands as racist colonialism.

[joe]

Irene -

1. I can give you any number of Christians who regularly visit Palestine to meet the Christians there and none of them have stories of persecution that you say are rampant. One person out of all the christians I have ever met there said there was any kind of problem - and there is no need for any of them to lie to me. Give me these contacts of Christian ministers and I will check your facts. My blog is at www.alifereviewed.co.uk

2. I need to do some more research regarding the Hebron massacre. The Hebron family I spoke to tell me that they protected their Jewish neighbours during this time. I have no way of verifying the truth of this but I am simply reporting to you what they said.

3. I have seen quite a few Israeli-plate cars driving around Bethlehem and have had meetings in Bethlehem with Jews. I also know many Israelis that are prevented from going to the West Bank by the Israeli government.

4. I suspect your opinions on the truth of the life for Bethlehemites will be slightly more informed when you have been there and actually spoken to people. Until then they are not really worth very much at all.

Saudi is an evil wicked regime which oppresses its population and does all kinds of wrong things. I don't think you will find many people justifying them. Except for the British government, of course.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

To Joe - it is understandable that the Christians in Palestine don't tell you the truth. Those that have got out do. I can refer you to any number of Christian clergy in Britain who have heard the truth from them.

The Jews of Hebron, one of Judaism's 4 ancient holy cities, were massacred during the Mandate people, no not by the British, by the Arabs. So I think the sentiments you describe are a bit rich coming from the sources you cite.

I have had many invitations to visit Bethlehem and am working on it. To be honest, it is not the Israeli government which is the problem with this.

However, even when I do get there, I do not expect to be told the whole truth by people living in that sort of situation.

Just as the Red Cross visiting Thereienstadt concentration camp were also taken in at the time

To Emanuel, Stephen and I know each other, thank you and we are fully aware of each other's blogs.

Kate, thank you very much for filling us all in on the Saudi Arabia wall. I don't notice much comment on it on this blog, though, or any other, as you point out.

[joe]

Kate - IF the wall was built on the green line between the sovereign states of Palestine and Israel, then you might have a point.

But the wall knocked down people's homes, seperated families, and prevents people from leaving their own towns INSIDE the West Bank. Most of the wall is actually built on Palestinian lands, for which have never been compensated.

The 'security system' means that Israelis can move around mostly uneffected whilst the Palestinians are prevented from having any kind of life.

This is not counting the illegal settlements in the West Bank which have their own roads, disrupt Palestinian village water supplies and so on.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

a letter from America,

Dear Dr. Irene,

You have a figurative gun, a gun third hand in that Jews set the tone in Haifa, we set the rules for social behavior per the laws of the Knesset. We have the whole of the police and the Israeli Army to back up the Jewish people's will whereas your former Rabbi at Broughton Park can only show his bruises to the local English police who probably think " the Hebe got it coming " as they dutifully fill out the assault report. Please.

This fantasy of multi-ethnic peace will soon change as the Arab population in the land of Israel grows. I'd refer you to Professor Stephen Plaut at the University of Haifa, www.ziocon.blogsport.com his blog if you can't see him. If you do see him, relay my warmest regards.

You go out of your way to visit Arabs, our enemies, in the hope that pressing the flesh will change their attitudes. Yes, I'm sure that there were some in 1938 that felt the same way about visiting Germans in their homes. You socialize after a war, not before.

[Kate]

Irene - Some information on walls ...

TIME magazine: "Saudi Arabia, unnerved by the violence next door in Iraq, plans to spend up to $7 billion on a partly virtual fence along its 500-mile border with Iraq. The ultramodern barrier will combine fencing, electronic sensors and sand berms.

"We're worried about the war in Iraq coming into Saudi Arabia and spreading into the whole region," says Nail al-Jubeir, a spokesman for the Saudi embassy in Washington."

BBC News 24: "In October 2006, Saudi Arabia announced plans to erect a security barrier along its 900km border with Iraq. The fence, to include thermal imaging devices, was aimed at preventing the passage of terrorists, a Saudi interior ministry official said."

Other walls: Saudi Arabia-Yemen - "In 2004, reports emerged that Saudi Arabia was building a high-tech barrier along part of its 1 800km border with Yemen."

Korea - "The most heavily militarised border in the world ... stretches for 250km along the full length of the border."

India-Pakistan: "India has built a security fence stretching for almost 1 000km along the "line of control" which divides the contested region of Kashmir between it and Pakistan."

Morocco-Spain - "Spain has built a chain-link fence to prevent would-be immigrants to Europe from entering its tiny territory of Melilla on Morocco's north African coast."

Cyprus - "A 300km UN-patrolled buffer zone has divided Greek and Turkish Cypriots since 1974. A wall built along part of the line in the centre of the capital Nicosia was dismantled in March this year."

Extraordinary! Where are the protests? Ah yes ... silly me ... it is only a violation of human rights when Israel builds a wall to protect her citizens from suicide bombers!

[joe]

Actually, Islam is not exactly played up in Bethlehem. There appear to be at least the same number of churches as mosques, if not more. I've not been to Gaza or Ramallah yet so I can't say.

I recently went around Christians in Bethlehem and the surrounding areas asking them whether they faced major oppression from Muslims. On the whole they said that the relations were good. Some said that there were occasional problems with some Muslims. I specifically asked if there were particular problems relating to the Palestinian Authority and they (that is the christians) said there were not.

In fairness, one very poor carpenter I asked said that he did feel forgotten by Christians from elsewhere and oppressed by Muslims.

I am sure my words will be put down to heresay and someone will find someone who will say that he is oppressed. But funnily enough, I have been there and asked people and you haven't.

Once again, I invite you, Irene to go to Bethlehem and see for yourself. If your government will let you.

Regarding Jews in Palestine, one Muslim family from the old city of Hebron I spoke to said they would be glad to have the Jewish families back with whom they shared their neighbourhoods for hundreds of years. What they object to is that they have been driven from their homes by the most obnoxious settlers in the whole of the west bank.

Many say that they want a combined state of Israel/Palestine where all can live together as equals.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

Oh dear! Maybe I should just stop blogging on this.

First of all, I do not have a gun and don't feel I need one.

Secondly, the situation is far more complex than people imagine, or than I imagined before I came and is a lot to do with languages.

The difference between Haifa and the other places mentioned is that Haifa is a multi-cultural city where all can live and worship as they like.

I have just finished translating the Haifa Tourist Board site into English from Hebrew and although there was loads on Christianity, Islam, the Druze and the Bahais, plus areas of natural beauty, there was not one item about any of the very interesting synagogues which abound here.

To me, this is reminiscent of the trend in England, which seems concerned about celebrating Christmas in some areas for fear of upsetting some sections of society.

Here in Haifa, Christmas and Ramadan are celebrated by the municipality and in a very big way, but Jewish festivals seem to be down-played. Not that I mind, but I find it very funny in the city that is supposed to be run on 'apartheid' lines. Far from it.

I wonder if Islam is downplayed in Ramallah, Gaza and Bethlehem? I don't think so. I wonder if Buddhism and the Bahai faith would be allowed to be practised there as they are in Haifa and Jerusalem.

I wonder how many Jews are in top jobs in Gaza and Ramallah. Not very many, I think.

In an article by Gerald Butt, last week's Church Times stated that Christians were being oppressed by the Hamas regime in Gaza and the West Bank areas and that many were leaving the latter because of this.

I understand that Saudi Arabia is building a 'Wall' by the way. I wonder if anyone could confirm this rumour. I also wonder whether, if it is true, Saudi Arabia, with all its ghastly social attitudes, will come in for a tenth of the opprobrium that is constantly aimed at Israel.

[joe]

Haifa is not Bethlehem, Ramallah or Gaza, Irene.

[Emanuel Appel]

a letter from America

Dear Dr. Irene,

You feel "safer" in Haifa rather than Broughton Park because you have the gun.

Now, you can claim that your "dialogues" have helped, that "interfaith" dialogues can make a difference. It's nonsense. "Interfaith dialogues" are simply a means for Israel to fool itself and to have others talk her into disarmament. What are they for? To enable those who talk for a living have an audience.

Only when Haifa's Arabs are down to zero, will you have peace. Bagdad was a huge Jewish city in 1941, how many Jews are there now? Who defends our right to return there among the English? Zero.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

Emanuel, in Haifa, at least twenty per cent of the population, if not more, is Arab. A sizeable proportion of that percentage is Muslim.

I spend a great deal of my time talking to Muslims, especially to students at the two universities here (often the most radicalized - I am sure you will agree), but also to a carpenter from the neighbouring Druze village (yes, they do live together in harmony), who owns a grand villa much more expensive than anything I could afford, and to others.

I have blogged about my experience of Muslims in Haifa. Most of it has been positive. The only spanner in the works was a young translator and her family in wealthy Kababir, the Ahmadiya neighbourhood of Haifa, normally known for its peaceful attitude towards others.

I was therefore surprised to learn from this girl, her mother and her sister (who welcomed me warmly into their home, by the way) that they support Hamas and felt that what the Muslim people were suffering world wide was similar to the Holocaust.

I did not answer this, but looking around their palatial surroundings and knowing that Hezbollah rockets from the Lebanon had fallen outside their windows in the recent war, I left as quickly as I could, for I realised that talk would get me nowhere.

By the way, this girl wears jeans, does not cover her hair, studied translation at Bar Ilan University with Prof Miriam Schlesinger, who was banned from Britain's own dear UMIST, by Egyptian friend of hers Professor Mona Baker in an example of racism which in my view beats anything else that Britain has produced. It actually reminds me of Germans shunning their erstwhile Jewish friends in the 30s, before the real terror took hold.

This girl has a far better education than would have been possible for her in most of Israel's neighbouring countries. And it is maybe this that makes her hate it so much (not that she realises that she hates it). For what on earth are her marriage prospects now?

On the other hand, the Muslim director of the university's 'Arab-Jewish Centre' has told me he would be interested in me setting up interfaith seminars at the centre, as long as somebody finances it.

So, I have been as honest as possible about Haifa at least. Things are not all hunky dory, but why do I feel safer in Arab areas of Haifa, walking on my own, than I ever did for the last seven years in the Jewish neighbourhood of Broughton Park, Manchester UK, where my rabbi was beaten up two years ago?

[Julie Pain]

I have been looking up the Yazadis - if anyone else here is interested in this people yet ignorant I have blogged a bit about them here: Yazidis of Iraq

Dr Lancaster, I am curious to know which people's attitudes towards Israel have changed since Ruth began blogging? Is the implication that some attitudes are considered more'valid' than others? For the record, mine is unchanged - the repression of the Palestinian people by the State of Israel is a continuing outrage, made worse by the construction of

the
Wall