Why we should all love America

Here are my ten reasons why we should all love America, prompted by the Archbishop of Canterbury's latest attack on our friends across the Atlantic. Read the full interview with Rowan in Emel below.

1. The Constitution.

2. Democracy.

3. Equality of opportunity.

4. Lack of class differences.

5. Jazz.

6. Hollywood.

7. The Twelve-Step addiction recovery programme.

8. Bob Dylan.

9. Multi-culturalism.

10.The World Wide Web.

In many respects, Rowan Williams has been a disappointment as an Arcbishop of Canterbury. Rather like Gordon Brown and the old left of the Labour Party, he promised much but would perhaps have been better remaining in 'opposition' than in power. It is ironic that he attacks the US for British-style imperialism when many in his own Anglican Communion accuse him privately of using imperialist methods of 'divide and rule'  in attempting to resolve his own intractable problems with the Church. It is refreshing to have a Church leader who is unafraid to speak out on political issues. That it is necessary is a symptom of how ineffective our political opposition has been in recent years. If (or should I say when) the Tories win the next General Election, and a Gordown Brow-led Labour Party is back in opposition, Rowan Williams can then get back to leading his Church. If there is still one to lead.

Anyway, read him for yourself. This is Sarah Joseph's interview with the Archbishop for Emel, the Muslim lifestyle magazine which she edits. (Sarah is incidentally a convert to Islam from Roman Catholicism.)

His voice is gentle; one strains to hear him. It creates an atmosphere of silence, of contemplation, as you have to still yourself in order to absorb his words. There is no booming personality, no highs and lows of punchy rhetoric, no sound bites or, as he says, ‘rent-a-quote’, but rather a series of profound views expressed in serene tranquillity.

In this atmosphere, we discuss violence
and the clash of civilisations. “I am very
sceptical about fixing the identity of
civilisations in an eternal form as if they are
bound to clash with each other. Civilisations
develop in dialogue and this has been quite
a part of Muslim Christian history.” He
is more convinced by the clash between
religion and the contemporary world, “Our
modern western definition of humanity is
clearly not working very well.” A theme we
come back to later.
I ask him if America has lost the moral
high ground since September 11th, and
his answer is simple: “Yes.” There is no
mitigation. He has obviously thought
through what he feels the US should do
now to recover, “A generous and intelligent
programme of aid directed to the societies
that have been ravaged; a check on the
economic exploitation of defeated territories;
a demilitarisation of their presence. All these
things would help.”
He describes violence as “a quick
discharge of frustration. It serves you. It
does not serve the situation. Whenever
people turn to violence what they do is
temporarily release themselves from some
sort of problem but they help no one else.”
A long term critic of the war on Iraq, he
feels that this perspective on violence also
applies to Britain’s presence there. “A lot of
the pressure around the invasion of Iraq was
‘We’ve got to do something! Then we’ll feel
better.’ That’s very dangerous.”
In a country where faith and politics are
essentially divided, in Alastair Campbell’s
infamous words, “we don’t do God”, the
Archbishop does feel he has a role to play
within the political arena. On the Iraq war he
wants to “keep before government and others
the great question of how you can actually
contribute to a responsible civil society in a
context where you’ve undermined most of
the foundations on which that society can
be built.” And he plainly feels responsibility
for the “beleaguered Christian communities
in Iraq, who are now suffering because their
neighbours have turned against them,
identifying them with the West.”
He also feels responsibility towards
Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land.
He refers to a trip he made last Christmas
with other Christian leaders to “deliberately
draw attention to our Christian brothers and
sisters in Bethlehem.” He condemns the wall
which cuts in half that most special of places
where the Christian narrative says Christ
was born. “Whatever justification given for
the existence of the wall, the human cost is
colossal. We saw that for ourselves.” He is
adamant in calling it a wall and not a fence,
“I haven’t seen very many fences of that size
and thickness.” Indeed, Israel’s “security
fence” is made up of a triple layer of concrete
and metal, equipped with electronic sensors
As religious head of the Church of England and symbolic head of the
worldwide Anglican Communion comprising almost 80 million
worshippers, the Archbishop of Canterbury’s position is the most
political of religious roles. Dr Rowan Williams, described as
Anglicanism’s cleverest, most gifted and pre-eminent theologian,
meets with Sarah Joseph in his study at Lambeth Palace.
I ask the Archbishop about the
relationship of modern Christians to the
Holy Land and he paints a complex picture.
“At one end of the spectrum you have
Christian Zionism which is very interested
in the Holy Land in ways which I find very
strange, and not at all easy to accept. At
the other end of the spectrum you have
Christians for whom the Holy Land is some
distant theme park.” He does however feel
that a “growing number of Christians have
become aware of the reality of the situation
on the ground” and journeys there have
helped “expose their minds and hearts
to the realities.” He wants to see those
numbers growing.
Christian Zionists support the return
of Jews to Israel because they believe the
second coming of Jesus will not occur until
all Jews are in Israel. The Archbishop is
scathing, accusing them of being connected
to “the chosen nation myth of America,
meaning that what happens in America is
very much at the heart of God’s purpose for
humanity.”
In today’s world it is easy to see why
people would believe such an idea;
America seems so intrinsically involved in
everything. The Archbishop recognises that:
“We have only one global hegemonic power
at the moment.” But, he propounds, “It is
not accumulating territory; it is trying to
accumulate influence and control. That’s
not working.” Far from seeing this positively,
he describes it as “the worst of all worlds,”
saying, “it is one thing to take over a territory
and then pour energy and resources into
administering it and normalising it. Rightly
or wrongly that’s what the British Empire
did – in India for example. It is another thing
to go in on the assumption that a quick burst
of violent action will somehow clear the
decks and that you can move on and other
people will put things back together –Iraq
for example.”
Beyond the tensions of international
disputes, we discuss the more fundamental
conflict between religion and modernity.
“There is an essential clash somewhere. It
is to do with the functional view of human
beings. What are humans for? The Muslim,
the Christian, the Hindu, the Sikh, would
say that we are for the glory of God; so that
God’s light may be reflected and God’s love
diffused. It is never just about how we fit
into the cogs of society, or about economic
production. The more our education
system is dominated by functionalism,
skills, productivity, and the more our
whole society is determined by that kind of
mythology, the harder it is for the religious
voice to be heard. There is a real abrasion
between lots of the forms of modernity
and religion.”
I ask what we can do to restore balance,
particularly in children. “They need more
time: time to grow, time to play, time to
discover themselves. They need space
for the imagination. They don’t need to
be protected, supervised and muffled at
every turn. Otherwise they end up very pale
spiritually and physically.” As a mother of
three young children, I can testify to the
truth of his words. I am often frustrated by
the inability of the system to allow children
to evolve their own individual identities at
their own pace.
Indeed the increasing pace of life is
something which obviously bothers the
Archbishop and he jokes that he wants to
put “a lot of activity into slowing people
down,” but his is a serious point. He calls
upon individual believers to be faithful
to their traditions and to make time for
God. He commends the Muslim ritual of
five daily prayers, which allows for such
remembrance of God to be “built deeply
into their daily rhythm.” He also gives tips
on slowing one’s life down: “Exercise real
discernment about what activities you take
on; if you can’t make all the difference find
out the difference that you can make. The
characteristic style of the believer in the
political and social world is measured action
that requires time to mature.”
However, ultimately he believes that “there
is a conflict at the essential level. There is
something about western modernity which
really does eat away at the soul. If the soul
is, to give the most minimal definition, that
dimension of us which is most fundamentally
in conscious relation with the Creator, then
those things which speed us up and harden
us are going to get in the way of the soul. We
don’t know how to talk about it any longer
but it is language that we still reach for. The
worst message we can give off is compulsive
anxiety, ‘I’ve got to fix everything’.”
Throughout our discussion the themes
of fear and anxiety are played out in different
ways. Increasing fanaticism and obsessions
with “the uncontrollable other” are due to fear
and anxiety which ultimately he believes is
a lack of faith in God. “When belief is weak
we are not willing to let things rest in God’s
hands because we are not sure that they are
there. We can’t trust God sufficiently to rest
in what we are and who we are.” For the
Archbishop, “confidence is a key; the right
kind of confidence; not arrogance, but real
trust in God.”
I put it to the Archbishop that some fears
are grounded in reality and have very real
consequences for individuals. We discuss
the impact of legislation in Europe: the Swiss
‘Kin Liability’ that would see entire families
of immigrants deported if one member is
convicted of a crime; the Danish legislation
that banned its citizens who are under 25
from marrying a foreign national, and
other such repressive moves throughout
Europe. Whilst calling for the good stories
to be told, he believes society has to “ask
some very basic questions about the myths
of national identity and legal power that
underlie this. We are dangerously close
in lots of European settings, not so much
here, to having a picture that the essential
political unit is one which the State grants
license to other bodies to exist, instead of the
State working with and mediating between
the communities which are actually there.
I think this sort of legislative philosophy
depends on the idea that the starting point
is always the neutral secular State and that
the religious or ethnic other is an intruder
into that space. And if you want to be taken
seriously then you have got to leave your
clothes at the door.” He rejects this political
philosophy and holds that the “Church has
the responsibility and the capacity to ask
some fundamental questions about political
society and community.”
Beyond his role as the Archbishop of
Canterbury, Dr Williams obviously believes
that there is a deep and real purpose for the
Church in society. We discuss Jesus as an
individual shared by both the Christian
and Muslim tradition and I ask him if
Jesus is a role model, “Not in celebrity
terms, but someone whose style and
rhythm and direction of life was one that
we seek to realise in our lives.” But was he
a revolutionary? “Yes, so revolutionary that
he puts all revolutions into question. The
change is so different that it is not so much
a change from one system to another, but a
change from one world to another. A new
creation where our relations to each other are
no longer mutually suspicious or exclusive
or competitive, but entirely shaped by giving
and receiving – building one another up
by a community of transformed persons,
not just by a new legal system. That’s
revolutionary.”
His views about ultimate transformation
are more profound than mere social change.
I ask him if Christians have become
tame. He agrees, “We listen to the most
extraordinary and outrageous things in the
New Testament and we doze through them.”
He cites the example of the Samaritans, a
people reviled at the time of Christ, but who
we now associate with righteous deeds. “To
get the full force of the parable of the Good
Samaritan we have to use another word: the
good asylum seeker, the good Muslim, the
good teenager in a hoodie. You have got to get
the sense of the unexpected, the despised.
That’s what the parable is about.”
Despite the fact that “differences matter”
in the understandings of Jesus in Christian
and Muslim narratives, he feels that “mutual
probing” can be beneficial for both sides. He
advocates a “mutual covenant of religious
peoples” to address a media world “very
happy with the stereotypes of the other” and
feels “Britain is potentially very fertile soil”
for building a plural, mutually respectful
society, particularly if we meet at the ordinary
level of schools and neighbours. He feels
that such meetings would help Muslims
see that “not everything about the West
is destructive, secular and undermining
of virtue.” And such engagement would
help dispel the myth that Muslims must be
“different in every way if they are different
in any way.”
The Archbishop is not afraid of
differences. He does not advocate glossing
over them, “disagreements do stand; it is
part of the fabric of humanity that we learn
by differences.” He is not afraid of being
critical of Muslims either. In Pakistan he
was “surprised by how the extremely small
Christian minority there is perceived as so
deeply threatening by an overwhelming
Muslim majority which ought to be more
confident and generous about its identity.”
He also feels that the Muslim world should
be ready to acknowledge that their “present
political solutions aren’t always very
impressive,” and that there is something
to learn from asking questions of “classical
liberal democracy that might fit with an
Islamic world view.”
At the same time he obviously feels that
the West has the opportunity to learn a great
deal from the religious heritage of others
and that an engagement with the religious
is something lacking in our society. He
describes art as a substitute religion and
says, “Forms of modern religiosity penetrate
a little through the hard service of modern
secularism, but there is something much
greater and deeper – another level to get
to entirely – where we understand the
fundamental dignity of our lives in the face
of God.”
As I listen to the words of Dr Williams,
I feel it tragic that global Anglicanism
seems intent on tearing itself apart when
it really needs to look beyond internal strife
and engage with others on the great issues
troubling the world today. There is much
to absorb from his insight, and one wishes
more Muslims could have greater access
to him. One also bemoans the scarcity of
persons of his calibre in the British Muslim
landscape, but then he is quite extraordinary,
even amongst Bishops!l

Comments

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

Robin, did you ever get to order my husband's book,

The Elements of Judaism,

as you told me you'd like to learn something about the Jewish religion and Jewish history?

At that time, you also wished me well with the blog.

I believe The Elements of Judaism is still available from Amazon.

Thanks for the corrective to Robin, Kate. Good that at least some people who blog here know about history.

[Kate]

Robin Bather: "the Israeli terrorists who murdered many British people;..."

Same old, same old ... Let's target the Jews!! Or in this case one specific Jew. "Many" Robin?? How many? Precise numbers please.

Doubtless you, once again, mean 28 in the King David Hotel (1946)! A retaliation by a decimated people against post-war British betrayal; in the wake of 6 million++, when refugees - from the camps - were being returned to Europe (by the British) even though pogroms were already taking place in Poland; in the light of Jews forced into displaced person camps and denied access to Israel. And, let us not forget, while the British were assisting the Arabs intent on completing Hitler's programme of genocide.

Yep. The Irgun blew up the King David, even though the majority of Irgun fought WITH the British against the Nazis.

To no avail. As it ever was ... all betrayed. Try, just ONCE Robin to consider documented historical fact.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

I suggest you access this link: an interview with Professor Robert Wistrich of the Hebrew University, formerly of London University.

http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=3280

I met him in 2003 at an educators' conference at Yad Vashem (Jerusalem) where he urged me to take a stand.

One of his sessions on the subject of the Holocaust and Antisemitism was devoted to the escalation of antisemitism among the left-liberal elite of the UK, where he used to live.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

I'm really sorry Joe. If you would like to send me the polite posting again, I shall of course post it. the ones I received were incredibly aggressive and accused me of having negative views of certain Israeli organisations.

Seeing as my own daughter works with one of these organisations, I thought perhaps you had the wrong person in mind, because I have never ever criticized the organisations in question.

I do wish you a Happy Christmas and advise you to read my posting on Ruth's Sudan Teddy Bear Fiasco.

As I have taught the Christian religion for 30 years, I'm afraid you'll have to allow me to have some opinions on the subject. Certainly the Church School I'm teaching at in Jaffa doesn't mind me expressing my view to the pupils who attend. So why should you?

[Alan Marsh]

Chris, the Church of England has always been closely involved with the English monarchies which invited missionaries here, protected them and funded their work, and by the 10th century had achieved a united realm in which the Church played a full part in public life - long before 1533.

The assertions contained in the 1533 Act represent a challenge to a Christian institution - the see of Rome - which had come to claim a universal jurisdiction, secular as well as spiritual, over numerous kingdoms in Europe including England.

The English Church, including its two Archbishops, and virtually all of the bishops and clergy, readily assented to the reform proposed by the king which would have the effect of restoring temporal power where it was due - in the hands of the king.

Henry wore but one crown: the popes up to Paul VI wore three, symbolising their unreformed claims to universal sovereignty. Thank goodness more recent times have brought a little humility to the claims of the see of Rome. We might soon see greater Christian unity as a result.

[Chris Gillibrand]

PS
The Act in Restraint of Appeals, 1533, which has claims to be the foundational charter of the Church of England.

"Where by divers sundry old authentic histories and chronicles it is manifestly declared and expressed that this realm of England is an empire, and so hath been accepted in the world, governed by one supreme head and king having the dignity and royal estate of the imperial crown of the same, unto whom a body politic, compact of all sorts and degrees of people divided in terms and by names of spirituality and temporalty, be bounden and owe to bear next to God a natural and humble obedience;"

This does not leave much space for an Archbishop of Canterbury to criticise imperialism, for without out it, there would have been no Church of England.

[Robin Bather]

I leave this blog for a few weeks holidays and find you all squabbling again!
Irene taking a schoolmarmish attitude that seems to get up everyone's nose and....wait for it......that guy Emanuel Appel, the self declared admirer of the Israeli terrorists who murdered many British people; the person who blames the British for the Jewish holocaust; the person who seems to think that all English people are snotty, class ridden, twits whilst ignoring the many truly evil sins of the government of Israel and their stealing of land and illtreating of their neighbours (including killing them).
He's a basket case when it comes to morals, ethics and down to earth common sense.

[joe]

Being as nobody else can read it, all I can say is that I disagree with you, Irene.

There is no point in us discussing anything else if you are going to use that tone with me, especially when I was making a big effort to be polite.

Again, kindly stop trying to tell me a) how to behave b) what I should think and c) what I should believe about my own religion.

[Alan Marsh]

Emanuel, you are still labouring away at a gross falsehood. Accusing everyone else in the world of either committing the Holocaust or alternately of denying it simply reveals the confusion in which you have cloaked yourself.

The Holocaust took place in central Europe, organised by the self-professed pagan leaders of the German third reich, in conditions of some secrecy. Had the UK and US not intervened in 1994 the regime intended next to destroy the churches.

To blame those who ended the Holocaust for committing it is woefully perverse and unjust, and grossly insulting to the many hundreds of thousands who died in order to liberate Europe from the nazis.

It is a bizarre assertion I have heard expressed elsewhere by those who ought to know better, and it does incalculable damage to the support to which modern Israel is fully entitled.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

Joe, you have tried to post on my blog, but what you said was both untrue and defamatory, so I have not posted it. Meanwhile, this is what I have posted on my blog about the 60th anniversary of the UN vote to create the State of Israel:

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/11/glorious-dancin.html

After this from Hamas, Joe and other well-meaning supporters of dhimmitude should wake up and SMELL the coffee.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

Joe, you have tried to post on my blog. However, much of what you said about me on your attempted posting was simply untrue and probably defamatory, so I have not posted it.

You are ignorant about Jewish history and nurture an irrational hatred of the USA - similar to Rowan in many ways, then.

As for Rowan, he is obviously a complex personality who flip-flops from one side to another as the Spirit moves him, being politically accident-prone.

His endorsement of divestment from Israeli businesses (which he was at pains to point out was different than being a mere boycott, as this would tarnish him with the same brush as the Nazis, heaven forfend, even though many of the latter were following in Martin Luther's footsteps, the guy who actually advocated boycotts of Jews as early as the 16th century) came at exactly the same moment as Hamas came to power in Gaza, thus putting an end to interfaith dialogue between mainstream Muslims and Jews in the area, as well as exacerbating the oppression of the Christian minorities in Gaza itself.

Then, he kowtows to Islam in a particularly nasty little Muslim rag at the time that peace is being discussed between Israel and the Palestinians at Annapolis.

He has always hated American forms of Christianity, as he made perfectly clear in an address given at Liverpool University two days before he took office.

His Muslim interview knocks Christian Zionism, which his own Lambeth Palace website entry for September 2006 endorses, as having been responsible for the Balfour Declaration, which he now favours.

So, all in all, he is slightly mixed up, especially as he has sent me good wishes via the Chief Rabbi of Haifa from an interdenominational meeting in Naples.

So, he must think I'm doing something right.

More of all that on my own blog:

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear Marsh,

Combining arrogance and ignorance makes you an embarassment to yourself and to those who taught you or failed to teach you recent history.

If you want to claim that the Holocaust didn't happen, or if citing the Holocaust is playing the victim card, that's fine. The Potato Famine didn't happen either.

The closing of the Palestine Mandate to the Jews either before or after WWII was a secondary cause of the slaughter. The fact that the Palestine Mandate authorities did everything they could to help the Arabs kill Jews is well documented as well as the actions of the post- war Labor Govt of Aneurin Bevan and Attlee. However, that's just playing the victim card :)

Let's move forward. If I argue in favor of Israel, you want me to move there. I can only stay where I live if I agree with you.

When was the last time you told an Arab/Moslem to move back to Excretistan? Never, I think, you lack the backbone.

[Alan Marsh]

You are the one expressing "hatred" of America, Emanuel, and "engaging in the stupid, ignorant game of America bashing" although you are apparently one of its citizens. It seems most irrational, not to say disloyal.

I and most British people I know are firmly in support of the special relationship between the UK and the US, and the work of NATO. It was our nations who put an end to the third reich in Germany, for which you unaccountably and unjustly continue to blame us.

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear all,

Nice try, Marsh, to divert attention from the topic. I stand behind my statement.

I didn't figure you for one of Irving's supporters but there 's always a surprise when one deals with one of you long enough.

Most American Jews were conned by FDR into keeping quiet re the Holocaust and not demanding some measures to stop it by assurances that "we're working behind the scenes". It was a lie and it was revealed too late. There's a difference between American presidential administrations, the State Dept's attitude to the Near East and America's record. It's been positive for the most part.

Now, since talking about the Holocaust is "playing the victim card" in your book, I'll stop right here.

However, you can engage in the stupid, ignorant game of America bashing as long as you wish. When Prince Charles converts to Islam and makes Camilla wear the black tent, the rest of you will seek a north atlantic alliance again.

[Alan Marsh]

"America hatred is the religion of the simple minded".

Can this be the same Emanuel Appel who in another thread here falsely accuses the US of sharing in responsibility for the Holocaust?

"...the quick betrayal that all Israel, the people, experienced in Europe and the US in full and in part."

It seems that he is one of "the snobs who don't know their own history".

[emanuel appel]

a letter from america

Dear All,

Let's make it simple,

America hatred is the religion of the simple minded and the snobs who don't know their own history.

Those of elements of American culture that are "strange" to you are really the application of the writings of Adam Smith over 200 years ago to a new situation. The freeing of ingenuity from government regulation gives you the internet, google and McDonald's.

Is my rant clear enough now?

[joe]

One reason why we should all be worried about American influence on our lives:

An American Arms manufacturer is a preferred contractor for the 2011 census for the Office of National Statistics, quote:

'Two suppliers, Lockheed Martin UK and T-Systems International, have been shortlisted and each awarded a contract to provide services for the 2007 Census Test in May. Following this test, further performance evaluation of the two shortlisted suppliers will be carried out, and one supplier will be awarded the contract to design (with the authorities) and deliver the 2009 Census Rehearsal and the 2011 Census.'

Not only do I not want to give my details to the world's biggest arms manufacturer, under the US Patriot Act, the US intelligence services can apparently demand to see the information held by any American business.

So our government is potentially giving away data to a foreign government- which could be used to illegally hold suspects without charge. If they haven't already lost it in the postal service, of course.

[Sue]

Hooray for Rowan Williams.

Please check out these 2 related references which is particularly applicable to the state of USA so called "culture".

1. http://www.coteda.com/fundamentals/idex.html

2. http://www.ispeace723.org/anthroposphere2.html

[Tom Jackson]

If anyone, please, anyone can understand the latest rant from Emanuel or even if you have a clue what on earth he is going on about, please post and enlighten me.

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear Tom Jackson, J Pearce, and the rest

Those who hate America really hate themselves. They are subject to the brainwahsing that the "chattering" pinko classes in media and government have foisted on the public.

To observe the amazing cultural continuity across the North Atlantic, I'd refer you to Kevin P Phillips "The Cousins' Wars". The very reason I'm able to talk to you is America's ability to anglicize those who'd let her.

I recognize the American voice in 30% of those here ( Pearce, Jackson, Kate). You may be surprised or not really flattered but there it is.

The reality is that the revolt
of your people in North America over 200 years ago was against those same mean, nasty, controlling, prideful politicians getting fat in London that you despise today. For example, your people wanted to extend the boundaries of Cornwall, Wales,and Bristol to the Ohio River. They wanted to vote like normal Englishmen.

The Ken Livingstones, the Galloways, the Labor technocrats of the day said "no, you're there to make me money, shut up". Well, ok. The rest was, blood, bitterness and snide comments on both sides.

[Mike Homfray]

Let me make it clear: similar lists could be constructed - and criticised - for other countries.

There are things I like about the US. There are things I like about the UK, and many European countries.

But none are a perfect blueprint.

[Tom Jackson]

"... but , let's be honest, that's what most of you want for the "crime" of saying "no" to Jesus".

This is garbage, delusion of the highest order, a totally unjustified misrepresentation of Christian attitudes which must raise doubts about the balance of mind involved.

Since the comment is directed at people who contribute here, people like myself, I find it as obscene as the Hamas video which I've just watched.

I have nothing but respect for Jewish people, for their courage and commitment to one another as a nation in the face of unrelenting hostility from those countries surrounding them. I have no illusions about Islam, their methods or fanaticism but the Jewish people are ill-served by comments such as that above.

[Ian]

Emmanuel Appel,
The true and only crime is the cherem placed upon on the man, we don't care if you say 'no' to him, that's your beeswax.

[Tom Jackson]

After a great deal more reflection on what the Archbishop had to say to Sarah Joseph, I discover that you can't help but have serious concerns about his perspective on many issues that face our community.

A good example is when he is quoted as referring to "the myths of national identity".

Like it or not, to some degree or other, we all inherit an identity that remains at the core of our being and which is the result of where and how we live. Amongst other things, I, for example, feel a great respect and identification with those men and women who defended our country against Nazism in the Second World War. This is natural, being born so soon after that war ended.

As a community, such a heritage forms the foundation of union together. It provides a basis on which we interact and support one another. Although there can be disagreement at times about various elements of the structure that holds us together, when it comes down to it, when the foundation is threatened, we stand together in an understanding of commonly held values and standards of behaviour.

As a young man, I earnestly believed that such a foundation, such a structure of values and behaviour would evolve into a world community, a union of different people and cultures where we all lived together in peace and harmony, respect and contentment. There would be no starvation, no needless deaths from illness and disease; those that had sufficient would share with those in need.

I underestimated national identity, or rather, those elements of a national culture that create an identity. What we inherit from our history; how we worship or our attitude to religion; how we dress and speak; the degree to which we have the freedom to express ourselves, etc. etc. etc. Anyone who doubts this has only to look at the limitations placed on an organisation such as the United Nations.

Ignoring these national differences conceals the real myth of liberal thinking; so-called multiculturalism.

I disagree that America is a good example of different races and cultures living together in peace and harmony. With the exception of the descendants of those indigenous native American groups that were decimated during the 16th to 19th centuries, everyone is an immigrate in North America. That is a vastly different situation than we have here in the UK where the majority of the indigenous population is Anglo Saxon with a Christian heritage.

So the Archbishop's reference to 'myths' where national identity is concerned is a matter of great concern. Weaken those bonds that hold our community together, dilute the values and standards of behaviour that provide a structure for the community to exist in relative peace and prosperity and no amount of 'underpinning' will prevent the foundation of our society from deterioration.

I believe that as an Anglican, I understand and have a great deal of respect for many of the conservative and established views that are expressed but I am getting more and more exasperated at the failure of those who lead our Church to define, uphold and promote Christianity with an enthusiasm and commitment that reflects our faith and beliefs in terms that expose the threats to that faith.

We do have to respect and cohabit with those of other faiths but to continually subjugate and compromise what we believe and trust in order to pacify and cobble together a relationship where there is little common ground is confusing and presents a level of ambiguity to the uncommitted and unbelievers that is unacceptable here and now and also to the God who created us.

As an addendum to this issue of national identity, Sarah Joseph highlights instances of what she interprets as "repressive moves throughout Europe" to protect this concept and the consequences such measures have for individuals. Such condemnation coming from a Muslim of all people!

[Bill Kotlan]

Our illigal immigrants have better access to education, health care, employement, opportunity, freedom, and civil rights than the citizens of most countries.

America may have its faults, but it is still the land of opportunity and works very hard to right the wrongs.

I live in the middle of KKK land and the KKK is a joke here as it is everywhere in the south. A joke. Racism exists here as it does everywhere, but we don't ignore it, we work hard in business, school, and the govenerment to make it rare.

Americans are welcoming, generous, and hard working folks. Heaping abuse on America is a fun pastime, but it is misdirected IMHO.

Thanks for the kind words Ruth.

[robroy]

Multi-culturism? We, Yanks, beat any other country hands down. Look at the Bush Cabinet: Out of fifteen...an Asian American female, an African-American female, a Latino male, an African-American male. If you think they are tokens, you are sadly mistaken.

Land of opportunity? This is so very true. I know of so many that have escaped what would have been their birth destinies in any other country. Hard work is rewarded here.

World Wide Web? Invented by a Brit. Let's talk about the transistor, integrated chip, microwave oven, man on the moon, Hubble space telescope, ...

Bob Dylan??? How about Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman,...

The Constitution and Democracy? Well, when you young pups have been around as long as the oldest constitutional democracy in the world, you can criticize. What number republic is France working on?

Hollywood? I give you that that's a mixed bag.

[JR]

Mr Keen,
Yes America is the land of equal opportunity. What each person makes of that opportunity depends upon them and their will to rise above their obstacles. I grew up up in the ghetto - South Bronx - 1960's and 1970's. I struggled to overcome the problems facing blacks and hispanics to become an educated profession. My parents were poor hispanics who believed in the dream. They passed that dream on to me. I attended public schools and have a bachelor's degree and a doctorate. I also have two graduate degrees from Oxford. Yes this is the land of opportunity. This may not be a perfect country but very few others would have afforded my parents the opportunity to see their son attain this dream. No it is not a joke.

[Lapinbizarre]

Pretty good list. I would quibble with you on #4 - lack of class differences, and #7 - twelve-step programme, but 8/10 is an excellent grade.

On class differences, remember that a British accent pretty-well guarantees a degree of acceptance at all levels of US society. If you're a working class immigrant from, say, Guatemala, you'll find class distinctions easily enough. The Twelve step programme, as Mike Homfray points out, doesn't work for everyone. It also contains snake oil elements that all too many folk happily paper-over.

[BabyBlue]

Thanks for posting #8, Ruth!

-Mary
BabyBlueOnline.org

[J Pearce]

Christ on a bike, I can't believe half the crap I'm reading. Take the p*ss out of the septics by all means (all the best rock groups this century have been Brits, lets be honest), but what have we really got to compare the USA to?

On a large proportion of this planet, we wouldn't even be able to discuss this stuff! Do you think the Chinese would suffer this discussion? Or Putins Russia? Or all of the Islamic Middle Eastern states? And how many internet connections does Africa have?!?!

Get real, you lardy, self indulgent halfwits. For all its manifest failings (and believe me, having a mate who lives in the US gives me inordinate opportunities to rip the crap out of him at any given time), the USA is the motor for the Wests economic success (which therefore allows you to indulge such western foibles as posting on blogs) and if were not for the separation of State and Church US-stylee, we would most likely have a Communist/Fascist european mainland (delete as applicable).

Is RW angling for a job at that home of fascism, the Catholic Church, as well!? He seems to be doing a good job if he wants to attack a bastion of relative freedom such as the States.

Long live the US (but please, please, please get rid of Bush and his cronies).

[Christopher Johnson]

As far as constitutions go, if you can find a current one that's lasted over 200 years, let me know. As for my gracious lord of Canterbury's "criticisms" of the US, they are the usual Euro-left fare. Bumper stickers and cartoons.

[Hank S]

To see where there has been a loss of the moral high ground, the ABC need only look in the mirror. His dithering on the crisis in the Anglican Communion and his total failure to discipline the Episcopal Church are shameful.

Lead the church, Archbishop, don't just sit around waiting for the $$ to coming rolling in across the Atlantic.

And as to Yankee imperialism, we have claimed no foreign soil other than for the graves of our heroes.

[Timothy Fountain]

The very first comment by Nigel has been seen and duly noted in South Dakota, USA! You can check it out at my URL.

Shannon County takes in much of the Pine Ridge Reservation, along with the Badlands (so named by French explorers, since we are getting all national about things.)

The destruction of Native American culture here (and the terrible hardships of Reservation life) are one of the stains on U.S. history and present reality.

But I do agree that the Archbishop, given UK history (and not distant history, if we look to Northern Ireland), is in the position of a pot calling the kettle black.

[jimB]

4. Lack of class differences.

Hmmm... make that 9 reasons. We certainly do not have titles, or some of the other external trappings of class that surround it in England, but be assured we have it.

We are perhaps more open to mobility with education being the key to it, but even there, every kid at Harvard knows where she/he stands vis-a-vis University of Alabama.

Harvard has developed an intersting way of making the point. Intellectual white kids from upper class homes do not make the greatest football players so when Harvard plays, they frequently get smacked. When the opopent scores, a common occurance, the stands have been known to ring with this cheer, "That's alright, that's OK, you're going to work for us someday." And the cheer is probably correct.

If Mrs. Clinton becomes president, she will be the forth in a row, and the fifth in 50 years to have an 'old school tie' connection to either Harvard or Yale. Oh yes, we have classism. We do hide it better than the British, but we do have it.

FWIW
jimB

[Mike Homfray]

'the malice of the SS'.

So, all of us who think that Zionism is not justifiable and that given the evidence, the creation of the contemporary state of Israel in the middle of hostile territories was a mistake with regard to world peace are all Nazis.

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians comes far closer to that description. It is a pariah state and the sooner it goes, the better for the rest of us.

[joe]

"Rowan Williams has the cheek to come to Israel bearing within his soul all the malice of the SS while hiding behind the churchman's outfit"

Are you happy that you've generated this kind of comment on your blog, Ruth?

Have you ever heard of Godwin's Law, Emanuel Appel?

[raymond joseph douglas]

I have never trusted Williams ever since I saw him in those Druids robes before he became arch-bishop!I am a christian zionist,because The bible tells me over and over again,that the Jewish people are very close to his heart.In fact they are described as "the apple of his eye"Zec.2v8.Nor is this thought confined to the OT.In Romans 11 v26-29.Paul says that,even with the birth of the Church,the Jewish people retain the promises God made to them!

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear All,

The ill disguised hatred of the Jews is manifested by all those who dislike Jewish self determination while loving it for basket case countries like Rhodesia (oops, zimby- zimby-wawah)

To those who think the Arab is kind and generous, see them in action here
http://tinyurl.com/2s52q6
but , let's be honest, that's what most of you want for the "crime" of saying "no" to Jesus

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear All,

The ill disguised hatred of the Jews is manifested by all those who dislike Jewish self determination while loving it for basket case countries like Rhodesia (oops, zimby- zimby-wawah)

To those who think the Arab is kind and generous, see them in action here
http://tinyurl.com/2s52q6
but , let's be honest, that's what most of you want for the "crime" of saying "no" to Jesus

[emanuel appel]

a letter from america

Dear Joe,

Israel ain't nobody's progeny. It's the Jewish people that made it and we are the responsible ones, nobody else.

Our weakness is mistaking politeness or cowardice for frienship. For example, Rowan Williams has the cheek to come to Israel bearing within his soul all the malice of the SS while hiding behind the churchman's outfit. Anyone with a computer could research his attitudes. Yet, we look the other way and invite him to break bread hoping to change him.

His kind are changed with a good blow to the gonads.

[Mike Homfray]

or...come off it, who are you trying to kid!

1. The Constitution. (Nothing original here - better constitutions elsewhere, and as for the legal wrangling it leads to...)

2. Democracy. (Greece?)

3. Equality of opportunity. (Is this a joke? Clearly NOT applicable to America)

4. Lack of class differences. (Again, have you been there? Not cultural, but in terms of income, huge)

5. Jazz. (Now here we can agree....)

6. Hollywood. (Indeed. Never has so much dross been produced for so much money)

7. The Twelve-Step addiction recovery programme. (Which doesn't work for everyone and has been misused by some adherents. But, yes, it has its place)

8. Bob Dylan. (Can't bear him, sorry)

9. Multi-culturalism. (Oh, come on....have a look at the jail population)

10.The World Wide Web.(Invented by a Brit)

I can think of some positive things to say about America, though. They have a sense of service and how to treat people. They do have strong citizens and social movements. The shopping is great!
I love going there on holiday.

But its foreign policy and its uncritical support of the mistaken creation of the state of Israel I do not agree with

[David Keen]

Antonio - he did mention Christians suffering in the holy land, you need to read the whole interview. Incidentally, one of the best things the ABC can do for Christians suffering in Muslim nations is to point out, as he does here, that Christianity and American foreign policy are 2 very distinct things.

Ruth - I find it interesting that of all the things you could have picked up from this interview, you spin it as an attack on the USA. For example, the deeply important debate we need to have over competing views of what humans are, which Williams nails superbly. It's a shame some of the less headline-grabbing thoughts aren't in the headlines.

[joe]

Oh get over yourself Ruth.

The USA is the world's only superpower and the only country in a position to act in a colonial way - expecting influence in other people's business and insisting on standards that it does not keep at home.

Sometimes I think you and Dr Irene Lancaster (FRSA - if anyone really cares) just like the sound of your own voices.

The USA, and its progeny Israel are big and ugly enough to defend itself. If it is scared by the monstrous audacity of people suggesting that it ought to behave in a better way then boo-hoo.

[David Palmer]

Thank you for saying some positive things about America Ruth, though I confess my list would be different to yours. Right now with the exchange rate being what it is, a week in New York looks very attractive - make that 2 weeks.

I don't profess to understand the Dr Williams. He may be brilliant but he is confusing and he doesn't seem to be doing too well over the American challenge to the Anglican Communion. What I can't understand is a man so negative about his own country and faith. He seems stirred up over the wrong things, but as I say I don't really understand him. I'm an evangelical, but he seems to talk a different language. Very strange, very confusing.

[Craig Goodrich]

Most of the items Nigel's list strike me as rather more reasons to love the USA than otherwise. #5 and #10, for example -- why when (as he points out) they were originated elsewhere, weren't they developed and spread from elsewhere? And as to Shannon County, that's one of the few places in the country where the Constitution does not even in theory apply; it's completely within the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, where Federal bureaucrats have full scope for their delightful ideas.

Not to mention that Las Vegas has more 12-step meetings weekly than any other US city of its size. But then, of course, it needs them...

[Bob Ayers]

Bravo Ruth for detail and comment.
I share your interest in Westerns, but am not sure of all the import.

I read your blog every day and find it very informative. I once had a secretary who was a Rhode Island blueblood and who had married a man named Gledhill. She was a joy and loyal, and I join you both in my prayers.

The Rev Robert C. Ayers, PhD

[molon labe]

In response to Nigel:

1. Indeed the right to keep and bear arms. And the responsibility for when and how they are used, if ever.
2. Indeed the 2000 election. In which I voted for Al Gore and then immediately thanked God that Bush won when I saw the nasty, petty and egocentric nature of Gore when he lost.
3. Indeed equality of opportunity, says the child who grew up working class and is now a professional thanks to scholarships and governmental education loans - plus hard work and the lack of an entrenched class system.
4. There are social differences to be sure -- just not the engraved in stone ones common to Europe which persist for centuries.
5. Jazz is a uniquely American blend of African and other influences.
6. You can keep Hollywood if you like. I've little use for it. Wouldn't be on my list.
7. Beats half the towns in Scotland I've seen. And I don't like the place.
8. There was a time when Dylan was influential. Who cares about Osmond? Do we take pot shots at Scotland or England over their 3rd rate entertainers?
9. Rodney King should not have been beaten. He should also not have been under the influence of drugs and physically attacking the police.
10. Berners-Lee built his system on top of the US-invented internet, subsetting the US-invented SGML to the simpler HTML and adopting the hyperlink technology developed at Xerox Parc labs in Silicon Valley.

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear all

The problem with having a man represent a religion or subsection of it is that the fool chosenmakes the whole look bad.

Another take on Canterbury can be seen here
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWM5NWI4MWU1OWQzOTU0NjFhNTFkZWI5Y2Q1ZmExZTg=

[Mark]

Geoffrey Smith... Nigel and Yakoub have simply responded to Ruth's "Ten reasons" they are not saying that anyone/any country is better than another they have just critiqued the list... Yakoub even says "The US might have plenty worth praising" but these 10 or at least most of these 10 are not it!

[Nigel]

Geoffrey Smith seems unaware of the Parable of the Good Samaritan, in which Jesus is asked "who is my neighbour?" The answer lies not in the one who holds wealth and power, but in the one who shows compassion to the one in need. There are those Americans who are compassionate and those who are not, just as there are Brits or any other nationality. However the overwhelming effect of American foreign and domestic policy is embedded in a culture of power often exercised at the expense of the poor and frequently expressed with a knee jerk reaction based on violence. It is precisely because of the Second Greatest Commandment that an uncritical view of the United States must be challenged. Besides which - Little Jimmy Osmond? Come on!