Islam neo-puritan trends 'barbaric' says ABC at HMD

Interviewed for BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme, the Archbishop of Canterbury covered a range of topics, including the Anglican Communion and Lambeth, and his full comments are below. But speaking about Islam, he spoke of 'neo-puritan Salafi, Wahhabi trends which wipe out Islamic history and make Islam something rather barbaric.' He was saying this at Holocaust Memorial Day in Liverpool, where the Muslim Council of Britain had a representative, assistant gen sec Tahir Alam, for the first time. My own contribution to HMD was to interview Yona Metzter, Ashkenazi chief rabbi of Israel. (Irene's linked to it on her blog.) If you go to the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust website, you can virtually light this candle. (HT to little green footballs.)

The context in which Dr Williams was speaking to Trevor Barnes was the lecture he delivered on Saturday in Liverpool. (These stunning pictures come from the Archbishop's own revamped website.)

In the lecture, Dr Williams said: 'One of the tragedies of our time is that an Islamic world which has historically produced a vastly sophisticated material and poetic culture is threatened from within by those who acknowledge only the bare word of the sacred text, divorced from learning and interpretation; the paradox about Islamic primitivism is that it seems to arise not from the strength of faith but from its weakness, by dismissing out of hand the capacity of faith to engage transformingly with the social and imaginative world.  A confused or weak faith produces a cultural loss of nerve, and that cultural loss of nerve impacts in turn on faith itself, generating the frantic anxiety that clothes itself in violence.'

Trevor asked him to enlarge. Dr Williams said one answer was to go on conversing: 'I think that many people in the Muslim world, probably the overwhelming majority, certainly the overwhelming majority
of educated Muslims, would say we actually need some support, some deepening, some strengthening in resisting these sort of neo-puritan Salafi Wahhabi trends which wipe out Islamic history and make Islam something rather barbaric.'

How do we do it without making Islam defensive, asked Trevor.

'I think it can only be done by building up trust over quite a long period. Some of the experiences of the last few years internationally and nationally [have] been an exercise in building trust... there are plenty of people who want to be friends and want to engage better.'

Disputed that the concept of no-go areas for non-Muslims, touted recently by the Bishop of Rochester, was a fair characterisation. 'You might almost put it the other way round. A lot of Muslims feel there are no-go areas in British society for them.'

He went on to answer questions on Lambeth.

'What I have said more than once is that I want this conference to do justice to the huge number of Anglicans for whom [sexuality] is not the overwhelming issue. We really want to talk about mission, about development about questions like that. I want them to have the space to do it.'

He agreed that the gay debate was probably being given too much prominence. 'What's inevitable, living in a very sexualised society, is that these are the questions most people get worked up about in this context. But part of the purpose of the Lambeth Conference is to remind Christians from Britain, from the United States, ... that they are part of a world church in which there are many other issues life and death issues that need attention, that need space. And if those are crowded out by our preoccupations then I think that is really not doing justice to our brothers and sisters in other contexts.'

He said there were two things he was hoping and praying for.

'I'm hoping we'll be able to have a good serious look at what structures we need to avoid the kind of confusion we've had the last couple of years, that we actually look hard at the ways we manage conflict, the ways we meet and how often. I think the last few years have shown us that sometimes there is a bit of a lack of confidence in how we do our business together. We need to get that back. The second thing is that I would hope both ends of the spectrum will say well we are willing to take a step forward make some concesssions to stay together, so if the American church is willing to say, right we won't rush things, if the African and other churches are willing to say, we won't instantly condemn.'

Asked why HMD was important, he said: 'Memorial days aren't just about information. They're about somehow beginning to identify yourself with the story that's being told. And just as for Jewish people it's important to recover your identity as part of a people who've been appallingly cruelly mistreated, so I think for the whole of our western society we need to recover our identity as a society that once allowed this to happen. I know it's an odd comparison in a way but just as we continue in the church to commemorate the death and resurrection of Jesus every week every day in our ceremonies because it's a story we want to be part of, so Holocaust Memorial Day is saying that's still our story, we still need to recognise that we are capable of making a world in which such things happen.'

And finally:

'The Christian church has to bear its share of responsibiilty for creating an environment in which it was possible to see Jews as less than human. I don't think it is solely the church's fault but the church can't escape from that recognition.'

Comments

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

It was indeed an amazing interview with the Archbishop of Canterbury. And it was wonderful here in Haifa to hear the BBC producing such a warm programme on the Liverpool Jewish community who may now be dwindling, as they themselves said, but who were, nevertheless, the warmest Jewish community I've ever encountered.

I've blogged on this exceptional HMD Sunday Programme here, followed by a description of the concert we gave at the Haifa Technion last night, a triumph of good over evil, if ever there was one.

And where else but in Israel would you have Jews who are confident enough to sing songs about the birth of Jesus, and an audience mature enough to join in with rapturous applause?

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/01/the-exile-is-li.html

[Peter Kirk]

I can't help wondering if Rowan's words about conservative Islam reflect what he really thinks about conservative Christianity.

[joe]

Of course, it is worth remembering where the Wahabbites mostly live: Saudi. Our best mates in the Middle East.

[Tom Jackson]

"I think that many people in the Muslim world, probably the overwhelming majority, certainly the overwhelming majority
of educated Muslims, would say we actually need some support, some deepening, some strengthening in resisting these sort of neo-puritan Salafi Wahhabi trends which wipe out Islamic history and make Islam something rather barbaric".

Joe's comment, "Of course, it is worth remembering where the Wahabbites mostly live: Saudi. Our best mates in the Middle East." casts considerable light on this observation by the Archbishop!

If Christ's message was "let's look upon everyone in the best possible light; let's ignore what confronts us and see everyone as being peaceful and respectful as we like to see ourselves; let's lay down and let everyone else trample all over us because, in the end, we know we will be alright"; if that was Christ's message, I can see where the Archbishop is coming from.

But that wasn't Christ's message! It may be the way the Archbishop would like to interpret Islamic teaching and beliefs from his Christian perspective but, as Joe points out, even those Muslims that we would consider close to our Western world, have a much different view of Islam.

If Christianity is to have any meaning or purpose in today's world, when faced with Islamic cultures, those who represent Christ today must be careful and watchful as well as tolerant and peaceful. Christ must be represented by strong, purposeful and demanding leaders, men and women prepared to illuminate the world with Christ's teaching, Christians willing and able to highlight the inherent, explosive nature of Islam.

There is no harm in the Archbishop reaching out to establish communication and understanding with Muslims around the world but he has to be aware of the dangers and the purpose of Islam, now widespread throughout Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Pakistan, India or any of the other 50 countries that have Muslim-majority populations, 1 in 5 of the world's population!

How easy it would be for the Jewish people to be persecuted once again given the forces that are lined up against them.

[Malcolm+]

While Wahhabism is rooted in Saudi Arabia - and largely financed by Saudi oil, it is perhaps misleading to suggest they mostly live there.

To a large extent, the Saudis have bought peace in their own back yard by financing Wahhabist missions elsewhere in the world - particularly in the west.

Can't afford an Imam for your mosque in Bradford or Toronto or Omaha? The Saudi's will help you out - provided you take one of these nice extremists we have all lined up for you.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

Dear Tom

Thank you for your magnificent post. I've just come back from our second and final performance of Borodin's Prince Igor and Ramirez' Nativity Cycle - one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever encountered. The atmosphere in the Churchill Building at Haifa Technion was electric. The choir sounded like angels, which is what we were supposed to sound like!

At the end, the incredibly efficient manager of the Haifa Technion choir approached me and said, 'Please speak to the conductor [he's a world-famous genius, originally from Siberia, by the way] and between you work out some really good songs from England for the concert next year.

'We have ties with Churchill College Cambridge, and my daughter was just presented with a Duke of Edinburgh award from Prince Edward, who came specially to Haifa for the occasion.'

So after the performance, when he actually thanked me for taking part, I approached the leonine genius with the mane of long curly black hair and he went all coy and said, What a good idea!'

So, watch this space.

Any suggestions for really good English songs to be sung by a giant choir in Haifa - it's quite a popular type choir, by the way, with over 100 members and the Haifa Symphony Orchestra to accompany.

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear All,

I think it would be best to exclude Jews from Holocaust Remembrances. Why have them around?

The whole purpose of the ceremony it turns out is to talk about Islam, to pat yourselves in the back as to how loving and generous the Anglicans are by having their top official attend, the same official who supports the Palestininas to a filthy degree.

This same Church cannot even bring itself to utter the word "Israel" regarding this Glafcon affair. Rather this strange creature called " The Holy Land" is mentioned. Funny, I've looked all over my atlas and fail to find it. How many angels does the "Holy Land " contain. Do the living inhabitants hover 2 feet above the ground based on their holiness? Is it filled with Catholics or Protestants? Somebody please tell me because I'm so ignorant re the place.

[Dr Stephen Morris]

How dare the ABC compare these islamic extremists, the very antithesis of tolerance, with the Puritans who more than anyone else laid the foundations of our tolerant democratic state. It was under Cromwell, after all, that Jews were readmitted into Britain for the first time since Edward I had expelled them in 1290. Is the ABC entirely ignorant of these things? One presumes that Moslems would have been just as tolerated, had there been any significant number of them hoping to enter the country. If Puritan tolerance excluded Roman Catholics, that was on the (at the time, perfectly reasonable) grounds that they were aligned with an oragnization whose declared aim was the violent overthrow of the British state.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

I don't think he meant the Puritans with a capital P, but 'puritan' in the sense of intolerant of further interpretation of text.

Ironically, Puritans with a capital P, such as John Milton, were extremely learned in Hebrew, Aramaic and exegesis of the biblical text.

It's a bit like different definitions of Kabbalah, with a K, C or Q. In his book, The Essence of Kabbalah (just about to be translated into French, by the way), my husband says:

This book is not concerned with C's and Q's, but with K.

Christians spell Cabala with a C, and those into magic with a Q. But K is the spelling usually used by the Jewish community, although in Hebrew's it's the letter kuf in any case.

Still waiting for ideas of good English music. And yes, there are angels in Israel, Emanuel (very appropriate name that, by the way). Because for five minutes yesterday evening, our choir was transmuted completely into the ether.

Talking about angels and the 'Holy Land' here's an amusing story for you:

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/01/the-former-head.html

Maybe Ruth will do something on it.

[David Cohen]

"Puritan tolerance"?

Would that be the same people who murdered the king and drove the Church of England into exile?

[Malcolm+]

It wasn't just the Martyr-King Charles who was murdered by the Puritans.

The last Archbishop of Canterbury to be martyred, William Laud, was likewise the victim of Puritan and Cromwellian "tolerance."

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear David Cohen and others who actually read history,

I regard Oliver Cromwell as the first American ( a compliment ). His major flaw was the inability to delegate power so that the Commonwealth would survive him.

Now, the view of the puritans is affected by whether you know them "over here" or "over there". The puritans, given the chance to practice local autonomy, were one of the great shapers of modern America, a good thing. They may have abused their authority over the course of their history but so did every other region of the United States.

I was born outside of the US in a Mediterranean Catholic culture and, let me tell you, learning about these men in black was like a breath of fresh air. Forget these Tory resentments about making Charles I a foot smaller. In the overall scheme of thigs, it was a step forward.

[Mike Homfray]

I have been involved in Holocaust Remembrance events for a number of years, representing the Lesbian and Gay community.

I think they are events where we really ought to put our differences to one side.

[J Pearce]

"Rather this strange creature called " The Holy Land" is mentioned. Funny, I've looked all over my atlas and fail to find it. How many angels does the "Holy Land " contain. Do the living inhabitants hover 2 feet above the ground based on their holiness? Is it filled with Catholics or Protestants? Somebody please tell me because I'm so ignorant re the place."

Mr. Appel, I present you with the Leary-Hicks award for services to comedy, for the most auspicious attempts to cut the crap and tell it lke it is. With humour.

Well, it made me laugh...

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear Mike Homfray,

No, let's NOT put our differences aside because of Holocaust Remmebrance Days. Rather, we should emphasize them.

I accuse the Jewish organizations of fantastic cowardice in always trying to build "coalitions" and "alliances" using our martyrs as the glue.

We don't want you and we don't need you if you support the arabs/moslems against our national movement, Zionism. Stay home. You're not a "good person" just because you are solemn once a year at one of our affairs. Go to a gay bar- your time would be better spent.

[emanuel appel]

a letter from America

Dear J Pearce,

It's easy to be funny if one is on the fringes of Society; always looking at it from a fresh angle.

Look at Sasha Baron Cohen," Ali G." America has hundreds of Sasha Cohens - the Marx Brothers were the earliest examples of the irreverent type bringing chaos to polite society. Groucho Marx teased Margaret Dumont, a matronly actress, who represented established American Protestant society ( Protestant in culture, not religion).

Now, the problem is that once a fringe group becomes the establishment, comedy and satire suffers. Israel has produced few brilliant comics or filmakers. There's nothing funny about Moslems with guns.