Long-awaited Manchester report on women bishops

The long-awaited report from the Bishop of Manchester's legislative drafting group on women bishops in the Church of England is now out. You can read it here. Early responses,such as this from Forward in Faith, indicate that the group's proposals will received a positive 'reception'. You can read my two news stories, one for online and the other in the paper. Also see this intelligent comment by Peter Kirk in his blog Gentle Wisdom.

FiF say: 'We are pleased to note that the Report appears to have addressed most, if not all, of the issues which we raised with the Group and that it seems, among the several possible ways forward described, to include proposals which those unable to receive the ordination of women as bishops could in good conscience embrace.  However, we shall naturally need time fully to digest and reflect upon the Report before commenting further.' More links at Thinking Anglicans.

Comments

[Joy Jahans]

It would appear that the Church of England wishes to distance itself from being in communion with the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, so why does it not simple state this fact in writing rather than by its actions.

[John]

I have known Rod Thomas for a number of years, and neither he nor friends in FiF would use the terminology with which you seek to caricature him or them.

[Robert Ian Williams]

Dear John,

Read the Reform web site and the journal New Directions to see the contradictory theologies.

Do you honestly believe Rod Thomas ( chair of Reform) believs the bread and win at Holy Communion become the body , blood , souldl and Divinity of Christ, and that it is a sacrifice offered for the living and the dead, with the consecrated elements to be reserved,worshipped and adored? Do you believe he prays daily to the Blesed Virgin etc.

Look him up in Crockfords, give him a call and my point will be validated.

[John]

Robert, I think you must have been reading the Church Times in order to come up with such a caricature. I suggest you ask local clergy who belong to Reform or FiF whether they recognise themselves in your statement!!

[Robert Ian Williams]

John ..I think you are living in a world of self-deception. 50 per cent of the C of E ordinations are female, and by 2016 there will be nearly 4,000 women. You can delay , but you are a bit like the white South Africans and majority rule. IT WIL COME IN THE END,

What I state about FIF and Reform a is not a caricature but a theological reality.

FIF pray to Mary and the Saints
Reform believes this contradicts the 39 articles.

Fif offers Masses for the souls of the departed and Reform doesn't even pray for the dead.

Fif worship the consecrated Holy Communion elements as God...Reform throw away the left over wine and bread.

[John]

Actually, Robert, your notions are nothing but a caricature of the reality which is at work in Reform and in FiF.

Approval for women to become bishops depends not on how many women have been ordained as presbyters, but on the General Synod, whose House of Laity is unwilling to give its approval, and it seems that the House of Bishops is also increasingly coming to think that way.

Already it seems that 2016 is the earliest likely date, assuming the required majorities can be obtained in each House, but as that is not likely, it is conceivable that the Church of England may even re-think its decision to ordain women in the first place - a possibility which was accepted when it first began in 1993 as a process of "reception."

[Robert Ian Williams]

Forward in faith believe in the real presence, the sacrifice of the Mass and the apostolic succession,. Reform believes in lay presidency, the real absence and that the Holy Communion service is no sacrifice other than praise.

That is the "orthodox" alliance for you...two contradictory interpretations of the Gospel and sacraments.

With 50 per cent of women as ordinands , I just can't see
the blockers managing to hold out, more than ten years down the line.

[john jones]

As usual, the team at anglican wanderings have some very readable stuff to say, particularly the reflection from the seminarian guy.

What will happen? Who knows, only God and Synod have the power to decide!

[Peter Kirk]

Thanks for the link and the compliment!

[John]

Forward in Faith and Reform are in every diocese already, and working together very happily, thank you.

There will be no women bishops as long as this means that there is no place for us in the Church of England, as Mr Williams seems to desire.

And no, we are not going anywhere. Our churches are the only ones which are growing in most areas, and we are not about to give up our ministry in order to please the laughably soi-disant "inclusive" lobby.

[Robert Ian Williams]

If the tradtionalist diocese is effected , it will permanently create second class women bishops, and second class male and female clergy they ordain. I do hope the women will reject this...time is on their side, and the longer they are made to wait, thuir case for unequivocal recognition grows stronger.

The fact that so called traditionalists would vote for women bishops if they have their " bantustan" shows how shallow their argument is.

Could you imagine Forwrd in faith and Reform in a diocese together...within a couple of years they would be tearing themselves apart.

[Malcolm+]

If they take a good long look, they're likely to decide they could do the job a damned site better. And they may well be right.

[Peter]

Scanning through it seems a fair, realistic report.

I think one of the key points is that many of the key directional decisions are best taken soon, rather than drawing out the process.

[alan]

Ladies - just take a good, long look at male bishops.
Now, honestly, do you still want to be bishops too?
Come on, you're much too intelligent for that.

[Dr Alan Marsh]

These proposals represent an improvement on the scorched earth policy of WATCH, on record as demanding a one-clause Measure and the subjection of all who disagree.

But they seem framed more for the benefit of Anglo-Catholics than for Evangelicals. They will need considerable additions to make sure that they provide for all who are opposed to this innovation, not just Forward in Faith.

[Mike Homfray]

From a brief glance it appears that the solution is the formal establishment of a 'church within a church'

This may make sense given that there are likely to be further splits and this model may be the only conceivable way of keeping everything under one roof, even if those within have no contact with one another!

Christians - what an example to the world they show,....