Lambeth Diary: Nigerian gay Christian activist granted asylum

Davis Mac-Iyalla, the Nigerian gay Christian activist, has been granted asylum by the UK government. He is living here with Nigerian friends in north London. His application was fast-tracked after he fled here from death threats and physical assault in Nigeria. He was held in detention for a week before his case was heard, and he fully expected more time in detention and was amazed to be set free. He learned on Friday that he had been granted asylum. This is extremely rare here and a clear indication of how seriously the British Government is taking the attacks and threats made against him in Nigeria. It will also surely send a signal to bishops meeting here about this whole issue, to be on the agenda of indaba groups this week. I am indebted to Integrity USA's monthly newsletter, published yesterday, for this news. The picture, taken at the Primates' Meeting at Dar es Salaam, shows Davis with the Primate of The Episcopal Church, Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, and Canadian Primate Archbishop Andrew Hutchison. See our story Monday on the views of people in the pews on the gay issue. For the full survey go to ComRes. Update: This is what Stephen Bates thinks about some of the comments on this blog...

This picture at Lambeth by George Conger shows Davis and Colin Coward at Lambeth. I spoke to Davis this morning while he was enjoying the ultimate British experience of Sunday shopping in Sainsbury. I had been there myself earlier, stocking up on melons and popcorns, before heading to my local church in Harbledown to hear an excellent gospel-based sermon by Fort Worth's Jack Iker. Harbledown is a Res A,B & C parish and its 'flying bishop' Keith Newton of Richborough presided.

Davis has had a series of death threats made against him. He fled Nigeria once before, in 2006. But he returned and settled in Togo where he was violently assaulted in April this year. Integrity reports: 'In the same week a fellow gay Anglican activist was severely beaten while representing Davis at his sister's funeral in Port Harcourt, Nigeria.' The Anglican Church in Nigeria once put out an extremely hostile statement about him.

He came over here during General Synod at the start of July to contribute to the Listening Process before Lambeth, and both he and Colin Coward, director of Changing Attitude, received death threats originating outside Britain. He decided to seek asylum and was sent immediately to Oakington. Many small children and their mums are incarcerated there, denied access to education and work.

Anyway, Davis was lucky. 'To be physically attacked, and then when I applied for asylum to be detained for a week - I was really very frightened,' he told me. 'I thought when they came on the Friday that I was to get another detention, and then they said I had been granted asylum. I cannot thank the Government enough. What they have done will give hope to my brothers and sisters in NIgeria who still face persecution. If they were not genuinely concerned for my safety, they would not have granted asylum. I am very relieved to be protected. I am going to live here and continue my work for West Africa.'

He will stay in charge of Changing Attitude Nigeria and plans to extend it as far through Africa as possible. Davis is also a licensed lay reader, if any of our regulars here fancy having him to preach in their church.

The Archishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, preached at St Dunstan's in Canterbury this morning. He said: 'Churches that are divided and fearful and inward-looking don't easily give that message [that the Church is a gift]; and our Anglican family badly needs to find some ways of resolving its internal tensions that will set it free to be more confidently what GOD wants it to be. ....We'll be praying, then, that GOD will help us sort out some of our tensions as we listen to this good news – so that we can go on saying it with joy and conviction to the world around.'

The latest rumours here are that the third and final observations document of the Windsor Continuation Group, to be published tomorrow, Monday, will take a strictly Dar es Salaam line on the issues facing the Communion. So TEC is to be told: 'Fall into line, or else...' Boundary crossing will also be condemned. The formula that will be embraced is that promoted by the likes of Fulcrum and the Bishop of Durham Dr Tom Wright. This is from the Bishop of Durham Dr Tom Wright's mid-term letter to his flock back home: '..this is the first time for nearly a year that I have had more than seven consecutive nights in the same bed, so I am glad of some stability at least!'

Bishop David also has an interesting analysis of how many Anglicans the 650 bishops at Lambeth actually represent. About 44 million, he figures, of which nearly 40 million are Global South Anglicans represented equally at Gafcon.

This is a video of 'an evening with Davis' last year.

Comments

[Christopher]

I have answered you on another thread but I see you have posted here so at the risk of boring to death everyone who knows the history of the Sodom text and how it came to be about homosexuality only in the latter part of the 12th century, against all the Jewish scholars, I'll reply to your points again.

So WHY did they choose males over Lot's daughters? It is not so certain that they DESIRED them, Rick. They may have, but it is much worse than that. What they wanted was to humiliate Lot's guests because that's how they treated strangers, especially when invited by someone who himself was an "uppity asylum-seeker". As I have shown you, the Jewish scholars have always realised the story was not about desire but about deliberate mistreatment of guests. Not THEIR guests, of course, but Lot's who was not one of them but an upstart foreigner in their view. It is the kind of racist view that you might hear from the indigenous population in some English cities that do not welcome the stranger, e.g. "They should not be allowed to put their foreign names above the shops". Believe me, Rick, I have actually heard that one from a not-so-nice old lady who claimed to be Christian.

Homosexuals may desire other men but by and large they do not rape them. It is mainly heterosexuals who do the prison raping. What goes on in American prisons (Funnily enough I did realise Sodom was not a prison) is about domination and control. The sexual relief is probably only secondary if it is there at all. Male on female rape is not about sexual relief either but about the domination and destruction of a woman sexually. That's what it is about, Rick. My, you are an innocent if you think rapists want to have sex in circumstances which would cool the libido right down in any normal men. No, the drive to rape is not about sexual pleasure, it is about teaching the woman (or man) who's boss. Why didn't they want the daughters? Well it is obvious that Lot offered them as a bribe to take away the men from their destructive purpose but they were on a roll and to have accepted the daughters would have been a climb-down. It's all about male power, so after the battle of Crimea the Turkish soldiers raped many of the conquered British. Ford and Beach (I think it was they) tell of a soldier who raped a man on the point of death. The commentator said "That's devilish", to which the Turk replied "Devilish good timing". As you know, Lawrence of Arabia was raped by the Turks. It was a common practice amongst conquering soldiery around the Mediterranean. They did not think it made them homosexual anymore than the American prisoners who force men to become their punks or gang rape them are homosexual. The fact that you want to believe the men of Sodom were 100% homosexual despite what scholars say suggests a personal agenda. I'll say no more.

[Rick Beekman]

Christopher;
I read with great interest your views regarding The Bible..What happned at Sodom & Gomorrah etc.
You can almost hear Satan sitting on your shoulder giving you his advice.
Males usually "Rape" other males in Prison due to the lack of females being in short supply. In Sodom and Gomorrah the Men who wanted to "Get to know Them" (The Angels) were not in Prison. Next The Devil will tell you there were No Woman Available.
Well Christopher read this; Genesis 19 v 6 to 9; "And Lot went out at the door unto them and shut the door after him. And said I pray you brethren do not so wickedly.

*****Behold..now I HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS WHICH HAVE NOT KNOWN MAN (Virgins)Let me I pray you..bring them out unto you and do ye TO THEM AS IS GOOD IN YOUR EYES only to these MEN Do Nothing......"
Fact# 1; Woman were available in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Fact# 2; The men were not in any prison

Fact# 3; They had a Choice..Females...Males.
Conclusion; They chose The Males which makes them Homosexuals.
It Doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to Figure all This Christopher. So tell your Spiritual Advisor He Is A [snip] (John 8 v 44) And stop trying to Fool yourself and others on here that you have it all figured out regarding this discussion.
Read This Christopher It's You Brother; "Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded." (Proverbs 13 v 13)
Proverbs 12 v 15 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes; but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise".
Christopher you'll never come out a Winner by going against God and his Word. Jesus told Apostle Paul that on The Road to Demascus before Paul was converted. Paul was a Jewish Pharisee he had Christians killed for teaching God's Word. Paul "Thought" he was "Right" "Thought" he was doing everybody a Big Favor by having Christians done away with. Paul "Thought" this and That. Jesus forever more changed Paul's thinking when he struck him blind on that Road. (Read Acts 9 v 1 to 16) read that Christopher if you will.
Have a Great Day!

[Kate]

Ivan Erickson: "I specifically mean that there may be those types of sin – such as pedophilia or homosexuality .."

Eh? The old canard casually and cunningly 'equated' in a body of text.

There is NO equivalence between homosexuality and paedophilia Ivan.

There are heterosexual paedophiles and homosexual paedophiles. Paedophilia is NOT a sexual orientation; it is a control and power disorder in emotionally immature inadequates i.e. grown men and women incapable of forming meaningful adult relationships.

Thanks but no thanks. We have heard it all ad nauseum from the resident Transformer.

[Ivan Erickson]

Extract from: Part Two: “Discourse on Gay and Lesbian Marriages”, by Ivan Erickson, author of “Song of the Storm Winds” – available via direct links to amazon.com/books on my website, www.ivan-erickson.com Please visit my site to read and comment on this and other discourses. Also, please be aware that I love all people of all faiths and ethnicities of whom God loves, and this is the reason why I continue to toil to bring the Truth and the Light of God to all those who are seeking:
“What do I mean by stating that one can overcome this type of sin through perseverance? I specifically mean that there may be those types of sin – such as pedophilia or homosexuality – that you may always have the urge within you to commit throughout your entire lifetime, perhaps. The Apostle Paul confessed that he was afflicted with an urge to commit an unspecified sin, and for which he had prayed three times to overcome. The desire of sin was so intense that Paul described it as a thorn in his flesh! The LORD did not take the urge to sin from him, but more importantly, He assured Paul that His Grace would suffice to help him overcome the burning desire in his flesh every time he was tempted by Satan and Its demons to commit this particular sinful act”.

[Christopher]

Rick

I could start off this post saying something like this:

"I'm sorry you feel the Vedas and Upanishads are full of Un-truths.
Myths etc. I understand. I once was a skeptic. Then I started studying them. The stories in the Vedas and Upanishads are not Myths or Fairy tales.
The Understanding of The Vedas is done by fervent prayer and Faith and belief in an unseen God...."

See what I mean? You have selected which faith to belong to based on your cultural identity. A Hindu would feel his religion was the true one in exactly the same way you do. I happen to believe in any case that Jesus the Jew had nothing to do with the religion called Christianity. There I think the Jewish scholars like Hyam Maccoby are right. Paul may not even have been a Jew but a convert himself. We know very little about his former life except that he says he persecuted Christians, probably not as pharisee but a religious policeman employed by the saducee High Priest. In any event, without Paul Christianity would be a very different thing and probably still part of Judaism without the doctrines introduced by Paul, viz. the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, the hyperstatic Union of the Man-God, the Trinity, the dying-rising god, and even the eucharist. Don't forget the gospels were written after the epistles.

We won't agree on this, but where we might is on the horror of prison rape in your country. You did not respond to my post on the attempted rape of angels at Sodom. I found the story of one remarkable man, T J Parsell
http://tjparsell.com/
who was sent to an adult prison aged 17 years. He tells the story in Fish: Memoir of a Boy in a Man's Prison.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lrj8EAXHPMs

It is beautifully written but a heartbreaking story. I think you would find it gave you an insight into what goes on and may also help you get the point I was trying to make, the point the Jews make about the Sodom story, that rape is practiced by heterosexual men on women or men, whoever is weak. It is about vaunting power over others...and that's what the men of Sodom were doing, along with the men of Gibeah who raped the Levite's concubine all night when he pushed her out the door to save his own skin. No divine vengeance there, perhaps because she was a mere woman...or maybe not an angel. Rape is as old as the hills and belongs along with gay-bashing, Jew-baiting, Roma-bashing and all the other power trips an overweening majority pulls on a weaker minority in its midst. You can see where this is going? I think those bishops who fail to speak out against homophobic bullying, as Orombi has signally failed to do or who even support the legalisation of ill-treatment of a sexual minority as Akinola has, are as equally culpable as the men of Sodom. I hope Ruth will allow me to say they and not gay people are the latter-day sodomites.

[Rick Beekman]

Christopher;
I'm sorry you feel the Bible is full of Un-truths.
Myths etc. I understand. I once was a skeptic. Then I started studying it. The stories in the Bible are not Myths or Fairy tales.
The Understanding of The Bible is done by fervent prayer and Faith and belief in an unseen God.
What The Bible is basically showing how ungrateful and disobedient and unbeleving Humanity is toward God.
Every Book tells about Failure for unbeleif and trust..or reward for Belief and Obedience and success. The Bible is Literal..Metaphors..Types and shadows..hidden meanings etc. Only dedicated study reveals things. I'm still learning daily after 21 years Christopher. I consider myself Very Blessed to Learn and Teach. I am The least of the least in His kingdom.
Yes..God knows the end from the beginning. He knew Adam and Eve would fail in Eden. The Idea is to insruct us what happens when we decide to do things contrary to what the creator wants us to do.
Nowhere in The story of Adam and Eve does it say they ate of an Apple. (Genesis 2 v 17). "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" Is a Metaphor for life on earth..We can choose Good and serve God..or Choose Evil and doing un-godly things and sinning. You Can't have it both ways choose one or the Other. "The tree of Life" also was in that Garden..That's the correct tree Humans should "Eat" from.."Eat" his Word etc.
God gave every human ever born a free will. We are free moral agents to do as we choose. God gave his Angels the same thing..They are free to stay or rebel and depart as Lucifer (Satan) did which is recorded in Ezekiel 28 v 13 to 19. Also in Isaiah 14 v 12 to 16.
Anyway just wanted to show you this. Have a Great Day!

[Christopher]

Thanks for your explanation of God's purposes in his several acts of genocide as reported in Judges and Joshua. It won't really do, Rick. If God was omniscient then as he is supposed to be now he would have realised his strategy in creating Adam and Eve was bound to fail. The mediaevals came up with an explanation for this, the felix culpa or happy fault. Briefly,
Adam lay ybounden,
Bounden in a bond;
Four thousand winter,
Thought he not too long.
And all was for an apple,
An apple that he took.
As clerkes finden,
Written in their book.
Ne had the apple taken been,
The apple taken been,
Ne had never our ladie,
Abeen heav'ne queen.
Blessed be the time
That apple taken was,
Therefore we moun singen.
Deo gracias!

It is an attempt to take the sting out of God's ineptitude or cruelty but it's a story, Rick, an attempt to make sense of a universe with unexplainable suffering in it. I prefer to live with that reality than suck the comfort-blanket of an irrascible father in the sky who MIGHT look after me if I don't annoy him too much. The trouble with your God is that he has too many of our human failings and not enough of our virtues. God did not create humans in his own image; humans created God in theirs. Sorry if this disappoints you Rick; time to grow up and put away childish things, as Paul the Myth-maker wrote.

But the biggest lie the man Paul wrote was that "Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned" This is utter nonsense. There was always death; it is the necessary corollary of life on the planet and affects every life form, plant or animal, and it is utter nonsense to suggest that it came after Adam ate his apple. Paul uses it as part of the foundation of his myth, to detach Jesus from his Jewish roots and turn him into dying-rising god that was acceptable to the wider gentile communities around the Mediterranean: Osiris, Adonis or Tammuz. Another feature to make his new religion acceptable to gentiles and detach it from its Jewish roots was to abandon ritual circumcision which would be quite a stumbling block for adult men.

[Christopher]

Yes Geoffrey, I am coming to the same conclusion, sadly. I take it you are using the latest version of Leopard?

[Rick Beekman]

George;
I really liked that poem (Seriously)!
Thank you again.

In That Poem The writer talks about The Mountains...Birds Etc. You know who owns all that?

Psalm 50 v 10-12; "For every beast of the forest is mine and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know the fowls of the mountains; and the wild beast of the field are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell thee; for the world is mine and the fulness thereof".
That Poem made me think of Out West toward Colorado..Wyoming..Utah where there is The Rocky Mountains..Eagles..Colorful Birds etc. God's Beauty. I went to Hawaii back in 2002 for a 17 day vacation. The Scenery was breathtaking..Really was. I live 15 miles North Of The Gulf of Mexico. The Water Is Emerald Green the Sand Is Sugar White..Just Beautiful. I've been in 19 countries each place has it's own beauty and scenery that makes it Special.
I've been to France..Spain..Italy..Greece..Malta..Palma de Majorica (Palma/Pollensa Bay) One day want to travel to England. You need to advise when is the best season to visit. Both my Grandmothers were born in Ireland. (County Claire/County Cork) They came to the U.S In The Late 1800'S. England/Ireland/Scotland.
Scotland was the Birthplace of My Maternal Great-Grandfather. Holland on my Paternal side. The Dutch side came to The U.S. in 1630
New Amsterdam (New York). O.K. I Said too much..Again George Thanks for The Great Poem..Bless You..

[Rick Beekman]

Christopher;
Wanted to answer your question regarding God Destroying Cities Etc;

First; God promised All the Land he Gave Israel (Read; Genesis 22 v 16 to 18).

Flash forward Christoher to the time all the Children of Israel were ready to cross the Jordan River to possess The land God promised he would give them. Read Joshua The entire Book. There were many cities and People already living in all that Land. God wanted Israel to be close to him. The Pagans/Heathens and Idol Worshippers had to go. God warned Israel several times he would deliver up all the people to Israel as long s they did what he told them to do. The Heathens were afraid of Israel because they knew they were going to meet their "Waterloo" when Israel came. Jericho was the first to go etc. God told them not to spare anyone. He did'nt want the Jews even to socialize or Marry these People so he wiped them out one city after another.

Now this sounds Very Cruel and Barbaric to we modern folks. Back then God was tired of People praying to Idols etc etc.
Romans 2 v 11; "For this NO RESPECT of Persons with God." God is not a "Person" as we are..He created everything and everybody and can whatever he desires for his own Purposes. I have no Problem With that Christopher. If we stay in step with God no need to worry. He Is Longsuffering toward sinners here on Earth.
Lastly read this; Isaiah 46 v 10; "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done..saying..My Counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure".
Amen

[Geoffrey Smith]

Christopher, I've just dumped the Safari browser for the reason that you state. In addition, it has an infuriating tendency to shut down without warning because it has 'encountered a problem and needs to close'. It's an attractive browser to use but it clearly suffers from bugs. It takes so long to download the homepage, you can go and get the dinner ready while you're waiting. I now use Firefox or Explorer and don't have any problems with either of them.

[saint]

Ah Fr Mark. You need to remember not to believe everything you read in the paper. There is usually another side of the story which never gets told.

Up next: Joseph Fritzl for ABC

[Christopher]

Sorry Ruth, I don't know what is going on. I did not repost these two later repetitions. Same thing happened the other day mudled up with a post from Julie. The only thing I did which may have affected it was to press the back button on Safari and it asked if I wanted to send the form again. I wanted to get back to an earlier page, that's all. Seems as if typepad is getting too hot off the mark.

(rg writes: yes I am finding it hard to stay on top of it all, it is quite difficult keeping track sometimes. don't worry though, I don't think it matters too much if the odd repetition occurs.0

[Christopher]

I am sure George will answer for himself, Matt, but may I ask you a supplementary question? What is a Christian to make of the following? Several times God in the Bible demands the killing of everyone in a city, men, women, children, cattle, everything is to be destroyed. Here is one example "Set the city afire according to the commandment of the Lord" as it says in Joshua 8:8. Read the whole chapter to get the full horror of it. Today we call such actions genocide yet it seems the Bible approves it. If the Bible is God-breathed, does that mean God not only approved but actually ordered genocide? Doesn't that make taking the Bible literally rather ridiculous?

[Christopher]

I am sure George will answer for himself, Matt, but may I ask you a supplementary question? What is a Christian to make of the following? Several times God in the Bible demands the killing of everyone in a city, men, women, children, cattle, everything is to be destroyed. Here is one example "Set the city afire according to the commandment of the Lord" as it says in Joshua 8:8. Read the whole chapter to get the full horror of it. Today we call such actions genocide yet it seems the Bible approves it. If the Bible is God-breathed, does that mean God not only approved but actually ordered genocide? Doesn't that make taking the Bible literally rather ridiculous?

[George Parr]

Poem for Rick Beekman

Wild Geese

You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
For a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting-
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

Mary Oliver (American born 1935 Maple Heights Cleveland Ohio)

[George Parr]

'God' is interpreted in human terms and, as Christopher shows, Christians are highly selective in what they choose to believe or quote to back up their varying arguments.

Where on earth is the evidence that suggests that 'humans are endowed...with Godly qualities defined by God'? That's flowery rhetoric isn't it, or at best an assumption that Christians make on behalf of themselves? You, for example, appear to be saying that you have little to go on, which experience will change. Experience of what?

Nowhere in my post have I said that gods do not exist, nor am I seeking to prove that the Christian God does not exist. I am neverthelss intrigued by the constructed nonsense that some members of faith groups advance. They rely on a swamp of presumption surrounding the existence of gods and then argue within a wider social context, that their views are solidly based and should form part of political argument or define social policies.

The impact that these people have on other perfectly moral human beings, living in peace, varies from a lofty moralising and an unearned privileged influence within our own education system, to genocide.

[Matt Robson]

Your last paragraph, George, seems to consist of you stating your opinion, and then immediately asking me to consider the possibility that you are incorrect. I'm afraid I'm not sure what it is you are trying to ask.

I am well aware that our view of God is always going to be tainted with anthropomorphism, which is a bad thing. There's a difference between that, however, and the view that 'God is always endowed with human qualities defined by humans', which is a depressing and untrue view of reality. In fact, the reverse is true - humans are to an extent endowed with Godly qualities defined by God'.

The fact that you seem to find it difficult to believe in an objective God due to the fallability of humans to comprehend him, is no more a proof of such a God's non-existence than my belief that he does exist is evidence that he does. The result is that I am more aware than you could possibly imagine that there are things that I don't know, especially when it comes to God - but the one certainty I am left with is that he is real, not merely the sum total of my comprehensions of him. As for what He's like, my experience is far too little on its own to go on, so I have to rely on what he has chosen to reveal. And at some point, yes, what is needed is a step of faith. But having taken that step, the general coherence of the worldview I have as a result is much greater than the one I would have without God, and stepping back would be an almighty leap.

[Christopher]

I am sure George will answer for himself, Matt, but may I ask you a supplementary question? What is a Christian to make of the following? Several times God in the Bible demands the killing of everyone in a city, men, women, children, cattle, everything is to be destroyed. Here is one example "Set the city afire according to the commandment of the Lord" as it says in Joshua 8:8. Read the whole chapter to get the full horror of it. Today we call such actions genocide yet it seems the Bible approves it. If the Bible is God-breathed, does that mean God not only approved but actually ordered genocide? Doesn't that make taking the Bible literally rather ridiculous?

[George Parr]

God, more or less enlightened? What was/is it that God didn't/doesn't know? Oh, I see Matt, you are being sarcastic; implying that in regarding the concepts of evil and repentance as pointless, I see myself as greater than God - sorry, seems nonsensical, not with you there.

The bible is a conglomeration of texts written and assembled by humans who describe accounts from other humans claiming to have received instruction from powerful spirits. Some believed that spirits walked the earth, with more instructions.

'God' is always endowed with human qualities defined by humans within a recognised dimension. What if this is not the case? What if there is something that YOU don't know Matt...?

[George Parr]

Yes Matt, as concepts for human behaviour sin and repentancee are unnecessary and to be ignored.

There are a raft of reasons why the bible gives much attention to these subjects, not least a medieval mindset on the part of those who wrote and assembled it.

[George Parr]

Rick:'Parr for the course'! Don't give up the day job Rick! I fear my sides may split!

Tell you what, YOU be a glorified ball of mud if you like. Literalist bible-believing Christians can be a worry, but they are usually harmless. Those going to extremes are fairly obvious to most rational people.

Historically it has been a very mixed bag 'from Eden to now' Rick. If there is any sort of plan I shall be surprised. There is no need for you to worry about dodging or avoiding 'consequences'. To do so is to live your guilty life with fear in your heart. Free yourself of this now! You do not have to be any less moral or any less honorable.

Satan was born from a need for a constructed balance to give the discrete pious something to demonise, in order to justify their systems of control through God, and also offset the massive social imbalance and inequality.

[Matt Robson]

George Parr,

Just out of interest, as you seem to consider the very concepts of sin and repentance so harmful, what would you say the Bible is going on about when it gives so much attention to these topics? Is it just to be ignored? Or, is it simply a case that God was/is less enlightened than you?

[Josh Thomas]

Anon, Davis Mac-Iyalla started telling his story long before anyone in the West contacted him. No one in Integrity or Changing Attitudes bribed him to do a thing. Stop pulling one quote out of context.

After strict scrutiny the British Government found his claim of persecution credible and granted him asylum. The scandal lies at the door of the Nigerian Church, Archbishop Akinola and the Nigerian Government.

[Robert Ian Williams]

If you lived in a country as awful as Nigeria would you not be finding " a boyfriend" to get out!

Surely if you open the door to one..thousands from the middle east and Nigeria can come. One thinks of Iran were gays are executed.

[Rick Beekman]

Ruth;
The more I read about this conference; The more I think of that One in this song ("Hotel California" The Eagles"

".....You can check out anytime you like...but you can never leave..."

[Rick Beekman]

George;
Thank you again for Your thesis on just how bible-beleiving Christians act.

What can I say? I believe The Bible is God's Word (You Don't) And that God spelled out in precise detail the failure of mankind from Eden to now..and how one can dodge and avoid problems and consequences for doing anything against the Creator's Will.

George there is an old saying; "The Golden Rule"..Whoever has the Gold rules". We see this is true in Today's money worshipping world.

Well George; The Bible tells Me God owns All the Gold..Silver..Platinum..All The Oil..All the land on Earth. He just lets we finite minded glorified dustballs to borrow it for a time. Who could possibly compete with him and come out a winner?
Two Quick Verses to prove the Point then I'll close..
#1 Psalm 50 v 10-12; "For every beast of the forest is mine and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know the fowls of the mountains; and the wild beasts of the field are mine."
Sort of makes we Glorified Mudballs look very insignificant indeed.
I'm Sticking with Jesus..He's The Winner!
How 'bout you George want to get on The Winning Team?
Or would you rather be (Pardon The Pun) "Be PARR for the Course"??

[R Hopper]

Sorry readers ... due to a hurried morning ... and the less than perfect eyesight of one facing the reality that he is not Dorian Gray ... but rather Dorian Graying ... I note typos in my post above as follows:

First Paragraph: "to kept up with news" should be "to keep up with news.

Last Paragraph: "so dear his heart" should be "so dear to his heart"

Last Paragraph: "tends to makes a mockery" should be "tends to make a mockery"

[R Hopper]

About a year ago, I had the pleasure of meeting Davis Mac-Iyalla at the home of the Bishop of California. When it was discovered that I lived near the Church Divinity School of the Pacific where Davis was staying, he asked if I'd give him a ride at the end of the evening. Our forty minute drive together gave me the chance to get to know a bit more about Davis' life in Nigeria. Since that time, I have done my best to kept up with news about Davis via the Internet.

As Mersey Mike notes ... "Nigeria has very well established repressive policies against gay people - well documented and supported by Akinola." This is indeed true. Moreover Akinola -- by his own words -- supports the criminalization of the actions not just of gay people but also of their friends and family if they are so bold as to lend support or speak in favor. A stance of this nature is most definitely at odds with what one might reasonably expect of Church leaders.

Yes, it is time that the Church stand against such actions within its own ranks ... especially given that the Church has little trouble doing so when the same mindset is exhibited by those of other religions.

As for those like Beekman who conjure-up Satin at the drop of a hat ... well ... to believe and/or fall back on "Satin's behind it" is so very convenient for anyone who seeks a crutch in justification of the prejudice and bigotry held so dear his heart. It tends to makes a mockery of Christianity. Of course, perhaps that is the intent.

[anon]

Ruth, can you ask you Integrity contacts if there is any truth in this story which appears to be written from someone in Integrity?

http://akinolarepent.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/uk-grants-asylum-to-davis-mac-iyalla-now-the-rest-of-the-story/

In particular this part:
"Davis unfortunately understands gifts and bribes as “the way the world works.”

Have Integrity or Changing Attitude given this man any gifts or bribes to tell his story?

[George Parr]

Possibly unlike you Geoffrey I am more interested in participating in a society which is safe, fair and equal, one which does not have important issues, affecting everybody, railroaded by dubious esoteric notions; no matter how firmly they are set within a magnificent but contrived framework which appears to confirm ideological solidity.

Equally, squabbling factions which propose a general lack of human confidence, and then appear to address it by maintaining the absolute human pretence of confirming absent gods, for me, cannot be relied upon.

'Having the last word' proposes some sort of disconnected and mechanistic self-conceit of a kind I am wholly indifferent to. I cannot however, speak for others...

[Robert Ian Williams]

I believe that Asylum shoud be offered to genuine cases...and I do not doubt that this particular case is genuine.... However does that set a precedent for thousands of others?
How can we afford that?
How can we know that persons are genuine?
What are the sage guards?

[Malcolm+]

How odd to be accused of "ad hominem slander" by the leading practitioner of the art.

[Josh Thomas]

Hey Ruth, check out this article by the American sponsor of Mac-Iyalla's U.S. tour last year. It's the rest of the story.

http://akinolarepent.wordpress.com

[Geoffrey Smith]

"This is however not the last word on the subject".
- George Parr, 29 JUL 2008, 17:48:59

I get the feeling, George, that there will never be a last word on the subject unless it happens to be yours.

[Fr Mark]

Robroy: then I'm pleased you won't be coming across the Atlantic and claiming asylum anywhere near here; and I don't think that you have a right to a strong opinion on individual UK asylum cases from your neo-con compound in the US.

[George Parr]

"In other words George male homosexuality is determined etc"

No Geoffrey, in Dr Collins possibly partial opinion, or interpretations of recent scientific studies tend to show that sexual orientation is genetically influenced by DNA. This is however not the last word on the subject. At least Dr Collins may have some sort of scientific credibility in that his comments might not be driven entirely by collective dogma or the wilful interpretation of unspecified 'science'. 20% is quite high?

[Geoffrey Smith]

Nothing wrong with your quotation from the CDF letter, George. Every word of it is true. I would add the following:

"An area of particularly strong public interest is the genetic basis of homosexuality. Evidence from twin studies does in fact support the conclusion that heritable factors play a role in male homosexuality. However, the likelihood that the identical twin of a homosexual male will also be gay is about 20% (compared with 2-4% of males in the general population), indicating that sexual orientation is genetically influenced but not hard-wired by DNA, and that whatever genes are involved represent predispositions, not predeterminations".
- "The Language of God", Francis Collins, 2007, p260.

Dr Collins is a professional biologist and medical practitioner. He is also a Christian and a believer in Darwinian evolution. He is famous for his research in the Human Genome Project.

In other words, George, male homosexuality is determined more by nurture than nature, which is what Cardinal Ratzinger implied in his CDF letter when he wrote that homosexuals are not born that way, but become so in later life.

[robroy]

Malcolm and David Kirwan certainly show who are the hateful ones are with their spiteful ad hominem slander.

There are, unfortunately, many victims of anti-homosexual violence (certainly more so Islamic countries). I am frankly distrustful of Mr Mac-Iyalla because he has positioned himself as the victim symbol that the liberals use to vilify the Church of Nigeria.

[George Parr]

Well said Geoffrey. But for the CCC number anyone would have thought it was in your own words...

Unfortunately your post gives a distorted picture, which borders on compassion because you left out the following Catholic psycho-babble.

Homosexuality and Concupiscence:
Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral care of Homosexuals 1986;

"Although the particular inclinations of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil and thus the inclination must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed towards those that have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not."

"Many homosexuals were probably the victims of sexual abuse or neglect."

"Concupiscence, one of the temporal consequences of original sin" (CCC1264) moves "the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of human reason" (CCC2515)

"...we can say one thing for certain, they are not born that way"

"The end result of these attempts to explain that people are 'born that way' is to come to believe that one's entire identity as a human being rests with one's sexual inclination. Nothing could be further from the truth. The human person is more than the sum of bodily urges."

"This false joining of sexual identity and personhood also leads to a certain level of complacency...they [who] suffer with a disordered desire... must resist with constant vigilence."

The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith is part of the Magisterium and was led for many years by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

[Geoffrey Smith]

Unquestionably, the UK government was right to give Davis asylum and protection from his enemies in Nigeria. It can never be right to treat anyone in this manner, no matter how much we may regard their life-style to be morally wrong.
"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided (CCC 2358).

[Fr Mark]

Robt I W: if you had seen, as I have, how difficult a struggle gay people seeking asylum have, you would not wade in in this way. Gay people seeking asylum in the UK face an extremely arduous process of talking about, and providing evidence of, all sorts of very distressing and personal matters. You should be respectful of that.

[George Parr]

Rick, it must be pleasant living in a world where a framework for living (and dying) contains simple strategies for problem 'solving' such as repentance. If quoting unachievable ideals makes you feel good or superior, that's fine. But that of course is all it does in real terms.

You will note that the majority of those posting on this thread are disassociating themselves from the bigots who villify others in the name of God - because to do so is clearly abhorrent. You do not have to be religious to see that.

It is however difficult to believe that Christianity comprises a political spectrum, with a vociferous percentage of 'hard liners' which has been granted a licence to judge others and make life intolerable for them. How does that work then?

The truth is that notions of 'sinning' legitimise guilt as a tool and are real barriers to progress and problem solving. They build on installed formative concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' and fall within an appropriate ideology where gods and humans battles with 'Satan'. Since there are few absolutes in this respect, human behavioural issues are almost always open to discussion and interpretation. Even major issues such as human beings killing each other demonstrably cannot be defined by a simplistic term where 'sin' always means 'wrong'.

'Sinning', as a concept, unfortunately, falls prey to human inevitability, solves nothing and represents only an unresolvable struggle in the minds of those using its perceived antidote (repentance) as some sort of social mechanism.

[Fr Mark]

Austin, No, it's not like that. There are plenty of Zimbabweans who have found asylum in the UK too. The system and individual sitiuations are very complex. There is no grace to be found in belittling the joy of any one person who has been found to have a case sufficient to be granted asylum in the UK, and I'm rather shocked at the vicious tone of those who have been doing that on this thread.

It is currently very difficult to gain asylum in the UK, and if someone is granted it, you can take it as read that they have a good case. How does it help anyone's argument to suggest otherwise anyway? Most of the nasty views expressed on here seem to come from Americans with very little idea of how the UK system works, and with surely no right to comment on it anyway. Imagine if we started telling the American Government who they should grant asylum to or not!

People ask for asylum because their individual lives have been wrecked in other places, and they arrive in need of welcome and support. Being snide about their cases is mean-spirited and callous in the extreme.

[Malcolm+]

I agree with you for a change, robroy. There is no evidence to suuport the charge that you are a "faggot beater for Christ."

Your posts on this thread suggest that "looks the other way when someone else beats faggots" might be more accurate.

[Robert Ian Williams]

Nigeria is famous ( notorious ) for its con men..now they will all be "turning" gay!

Another nail in Labour's coffin I fear.

[Robt. Zacher]

Of course the right-wing must do away with Davis Mac-Iyalla by calling his story fraudulant or the stories of persecution, abuse and imprisonment as inventions. Listen to them here and elsewhere over and over.

[Austin Scott]

The Home Office can rush through this application while happily informing thousands of Zimbabwean exiles from torture and starvation that they have no grounds for asylum. Such politicized and partial decisions make the British bureaucracy hated and feared in equal measure.

[KM]

Thank you Matthew Williams for your humane and tolerant approach.
There is a world of difference between not approving of gay clergy and condoning homophobic state persecution and violence.

[robroy]

I am quite used to being accused of being hateful for merely disagreeing with the slightest aspects of the agenda of those who are attempting to hijack the church for their political purposes. However, "Faggot beaters for Christ" certainly is incredibly offensive and reaches new lows.