Lambeth Diary: 'Gene must resign, US church must go'

As I write this the Archbishop of Sudan Dr Daniel Deng is sitting behind me in the press room, calling for Gene Robinson to resign. 'God is not making a mistake creating Adam and Eve, he said. 'He would have created two Adams if he wanted.' Our news report on this is now online. Dr Deng had just come from a meeting of the 150-plus Global South bishops at the Lambeth Conference, representing 17 provinces. And this has just come in from Bishop of Fort Worth Jack Iker: 'Those Bishops who stand in solidarity with Gene Robinson should withdraw themselves from further participation in the Lambeth Conference. Having failed in several attempts to include Gene in the Conference, his supporters should themselves feel a sense of rejection from the Conference itself. Integrity and honesty would dictate that they should stand with Gene - excluded from full participation in the Lambeth Conference. Is this all talk, or is it backed up by action?'

This represents the hard-line conservative-traditionalist stance at the Lambeth Conference and it is widespread. I wish I wasn't writing this but things here are really not looking good. The Anglican Communion seems to be falling apart in front of our eyes and it is not a pretty sight.

Photo George Conger

Video Joanna Clegg. Drell's Descants has helpfully transcribed some of his comments.

Comments

[aldolopur]

I've already come to the conclusion that one diet will work wonders for one person yet not make a slight difference to another.
What diets have you done that actually worked for you?
How long did you keep it up? (Yes I'm assuming you gave up at some point)

I've done many diets in my life and each time I gave up keeping it going for various reasons.
One does stand out though and that's the cabbage soup diet. It is meant to cleanse your body of all the bad foods you've had and should only be done for one week since it is not a diet for life. I can say it really worked. My mum and I did it (I think 10 years ago) She lost about 3 kg in that week and looked no different in her appearance. I, on the other hand lost nothing, yet I looked great.
In a nut shell the diet consists of having a certain recipe for cabbage soup which you can eat as much as you want the entire week, and every day you eat something else (can't remember the list though..)

How about you?

[traitemah]

What do you think will happen to America in the nearest future? It seems to me that General Election in the USA looks starts to look like comedy show. :D Yesterday I found the following post in periodics:

"The Naked Cowboy endorses McCain--ooookay :)

The Naked Cowboy was just on tv saying he plans to endorse
McCain. :D LOL I'm sure McCain's camp will relay that to him
and I am sure it will mean all the difference to the
outcome of the election. NOT!

McCain's entire campaign has been a 3 ring circus. What
happened there? Bozo the clown Bush would have been right
at home if they had let him anywhere near them. ROFL

How exactly does Bush show his face now that his entire
party has disowned him? :("

[Geoffrey Smith]

"If you really believe the Spirit works counter-culturally, then have the daring to open your ears to listen to what the experience of your gay brethren might be telling you".
- Mark, 24 JUL 2008, 19:23:53

Substitute the words 'Catholic Church' for 'Spirit' and 'Catholic' for 'gay', and I think you've got something there, Mark.

[Fr Mark]

Presbyter Mark: when I was younger, the people now crying for moral conservatism in the Church, the Con Evangelicals, were arguing that churches everywhere should give up their traditions of choirs, liturgical worship, robed clergy, etc. and come round to the new way of praise bands with guitars and drums, clergy in civvies, extemporary prayer services, etc. We were told, ad nauseam, by the Evangelicals that only by modernising could we hope to have a future.

So how can it be that this group is committed to modern (by which they mean 1970s) ways of doing some things, but traditional (by which they mean 1950s) views of some ethical issues? There is really no logic to it. "Traditional" Christian ethics would encompass an absolute ban on charging (or paying) interest on a loan, for example; it would forbid women from speaking in churches, as St Paul enjoins; and so on. There is no logic in smugly saying "oh we're for tradition: you're just will o'the wisps."

Christians have always both adapted the culture and also been counter-cultural. Growing up gay means you learn a lot more about being counter-cultural than straight people do, simply by virtue of being always in a minority and having to understand what it is to live perpetually on the edge of social norms. Gay people can contribute a lot to the rest of the Church in this area. I always find it weird to hear churchpeople mouthing platitudes about being counter-cultural, when I then look at them and see merely boring middle-class middle-aged married materialistic establishment types who are incapable of thinking outside their cultural values, and who are never challenged to do so by their church. If you really believe the Spirit works counter-culturally, then have the daring to open your ears to listen to what the experience of your gay brethren might be telling you.

[Presbyter Mark]

Ruth, the Anglican Communion has been falling apart since the decision of TEC to flout promises made at the Primates meetings not to consecrate an openly gay Bishop. In their usual high-handed way, they have ignored the clear univocal message of scripture and tradition over the last 2,000 years and ignored the feelings of the rest of the Anglican Communion.
Praise God for the gospel courage of the global south and their willingness to contend for the truth of the gospel for the sake of our lost world.

[Presbter Mark]

Fr. Mark "Con Evos are driving an ever greater wedge between being a Christian and being a well-balanced member of society, and the gay issue is indicative of that. That is the problem."
Interesting use of slanted language - always easier than substantive argument I find, like providing the evidence for your earlier generalisations that NP spotted.
How do we define a "well-balanced member of society"? Do we use society's norms which are fleeting or do we rely on the word of an unchanging God? If the latter, it is always a bit dangerous to pick and choose those bits we like and those bits our (im)morality would prefer to avoid. I am more surprised by the insecure gay clergy who lie to their bishops about their active sexuality just to stay in the job!

[Geoffrey Smith]

"Who in their right mind would take the risk of encountering one of our notorious cyber-stalkers in the flesh?"
- Kate, 24 JUL 2008, 13:57:32

You were saying something about vindictive posts, Jimmy?

[Kate]

Geoffrey Smith - sorry old boy - wrong again.

My 'given' name IS Kate. Ruth Gledhill can verify that fact since we have exchanged personal emails. My surname is part of my email address but certainly NOT for publication.

Who in their right mind would take the risk of encountering one of our notorious cyber-stalkers in the flesh?

[Julie (Juliet Pain)]

Just to point out that 'Julie' posting above is not me. Ta. I'm so horrified that I have nothing to say - at least nothing which I'd consider publishable. :-(

[Julie]

'God is not making a mistake creating Adam and Eve, he said. 'He would have created two Adams if he wanted.'

So what does the bishop think is going on when confronted with the fact that his God can't even keep to his own model. He "didn't make Adam and Steve". I hear him cry...[pause for laughter]. So let's ask, then who did create Adam and Steve, Bishop? They sure are here now, make no mistake. "Ummm....perhaps there was no mistake at all."

[Geoffrey Smith]

"Perhaps I have missed the point of blogging, but I do wish people would use their real names rather than the pseudonyms which predominate on your blogsite".
- Jimmy Hamilton-Brown, 23 JUL 2008, 17:43:42

Hear, hear, Jimmy Hamilton-Brown!!
Pseudonyms such as 'Kate', 'Christopher' and 'Hugh Manitas' usually indicate vindictive posts, and they should of course be ignored.

[Lapinbizarre]

Yesterday we had "Jenny" using the smoke screen of being "a liberal, who in the past supported gay rights" to disseminate hate.

Today she (if indeed "she" is a "she", and this is not just another sympathy-trawling gambit in the masquerade) spews her venom at Susan Russell - a fine woman, be it noted - observing "I see Susan Russell posting here, the one who views Africans as useful props to exploit".

"Jenny" continues with the preposterous, obscene libel - and I do not use the term "Libel" (or indeed the words "preposterous" and "obscene") lightly - that "She's rather like those who are referred to as chicken hawks, pimping out children to make a profit."

Has this individual no shame? On the bright side, while she hides behind the word "Liberal", I do not see her hiding behind the term "Christian".

ps a "chicken hawk" is not the pimp, but one who actively sexually abuses children. Nice accusation to throw, "Jenny".

[MRG]

"I wish I wasn't writing this but things here are really not looking good..."

Goddammit, Ruth, if you didn't love it you wouldn't be such a drama queen. I don't see anyone else making such tragic pronouncements. Stop flouncing about so portentously and do your damn job.

[Jimmy Hamilton-Brown]

Perhaps I have missed the point of blogging, but I do wish people would use their real names rather than the pseudonyms which predominate on your blogsite.

I was always taught to ignore unsigned communications, particularly the vindictive ones!

[Fr Mark]

NP: explain to me then, please, why the Church experiencing the most vertiginious decline in numbers in Britain is the most morally hard-line, the RC Church?

Con Evos are driving an ever greater wedge between being a Christian and being a well-balanced member of society, and the gay issue is indicative of that. That is the problem. Even in Con Evo churches, you cannot assume the members share the hard anti-gay line of their clergy.

Further, their parish priests are nearly always men: where are the women who would provide more sane leadership? Do you go to a parish where the vicar is a woman? Are any of these wonderfully successful parishes you vaunt led by women? Because, if not, that tells me there is something wrong with the model of leadership they have. It's that same wrong model of leadership that encourages the kind of insecure power-talking men who can't cope with gay people.

[Claud]

Fr. Mike, before you sing the praises of the longevity of the liberal religion of Europe, bear in mind that many of your countries are on the brink of a total demographic shift with an influx of immigrants from just those countries that the "enlightened" are delightfully sneering at on this board.

With the values you are espousing, the only way you will "move forward" as a society is into Sharia. And may God take pity on you then.

[Merseymike]

Ah, so the US government is on a par with that of Sudan.

Get real. I am no Bush fan, but this sounds remarkably Bishop-of-Durham like in its sheer stupidity.

[Geoffrey Smith]

"A bit of a cheek for anyone in Sudan, of all places, to tell the US how to run its affairs"
- Merseymike, 22 JUL 2008, 21:59:19

Perhaps, Merseymike, if the US were to be told more often how to run their affairs, the world as a whole, not just the Sudan, would be a happier place?

[NP]

Mark - you are making up your own reality again.....according to you, it is the liberal churches in the CofE that have great growth in the last 20 years, is it?? EVIDENCE pls?

Fact is that TEC bends over backwards to stay in the AC because without the AC, it is a small and shrinking liberal sect in the US. This is why they accept so many compromises, even Gene not being invited, in order to stay part of the bigger club (even if that means tearing it apart by staying in....no confidence to lead a liberal church)

Fact is people like you stay in the CofE despite Lambeth 1.10 for exactly the same reason....

But you can believe that liberal churches are growing strongly in the last couple of decades....despite the nos. I am sure you have had much more growth than the "Alpha" churches, right?

[Geoffrey Smith]

"Jesus never said a single word about homosexuality"
- Roger, 23 JUL 2008, 03:27:25

Somebody needs to read John 21:25.

[sound]

Ruth I think you (and several others)need to beware of crying wolf too many times. The Anglican Communion has, apparently, been 'falling apart before our very eyes' for a number of years now. We've heard of torn fabric, break ups, etc etc etc, unitl many of us are broed stiff by it all. Yet still the only people who seem to have fallen apart are the GAFCONites who are off on their own forming a breakaway sect as I write.
As so often, Bishop Alan's blog has some wise words for journalists (and I write as former journalist)

"Amidst slightly extraordinary suggestions by print journalists to their editors that they are revealing things exclusively, I can exclusively reveal that their revelations are there days ahead on various blogs by people who, unlike most of the hacks most of the time, actually know and understand what’s going on."

[Fr Mark]

Lots of shrill (American?) voices on here, upping the aggro to make it sound like the time is ripe for "liberalism" to crumble.

Remember, though, the survey the other day: 84% of religious people in the UK do not think homosexuality is wrong. If the church in the UK preaches homophobia, it has no future - you need to get real about this. The UK (and all of Western Europe) is already very liberal towards gay people, and not about to change direction. Europeans are NOT like Americans in this area - we do not have a large constituency of angry social conservatives like you have in the States, and we are much more cynical about religion generally, and religious people trying to wield social influence in particular. So if you are one of those angry US social conservatives, think twice before getting worked up about our society on here, please: the atmosphere is just not as extreme here in Europe. We are all moving forwards together as a society, and ending discrimination is a big part of that development, particularly for the younger generation, which is completely unrepresented by the C of E's leadership.

The wierdos in Europe are the hard-line anti-gay brigade, and they are not winning over anybody to their way of thinking as a result of all this screaming at gay churchpeople - quite the reverse, in fact.

[L]

I have two words for the Archbishop and his scandalized conscience: Omar al Bashir. Lots of work and letters to write and press conferences to give there.

[An American Observer]

As I've said before, no one is forming the Third World bishops to ordain gay men or women as clergy or bishops if they don't want to. What business is it of theirs if Western churches do?

Bishop Robinson was elected by representatives of the clergy and laity of his diocese. Presiding Bishop Jefferts-Schori was elected by a majority of U.S. bishops and the laity who attended the General Convention.

Don't the Third World bishops have enough problems in their own countries? What are the Sudanese bishops doing about Darfur? Is Akinola speaking out as fervently about witchcraft hysteria in Nigeria as he is about the sexual mores of other countries?

[Roger]

Despite all the emotion in blog responses, this battle comes down to different interpretations of scripture.

Jesus never said a single word about homosexuality.

This is a culture war, and little else. As all national churches in the Anglican Communion are autonomous, it is not the business of ANY such national church to interfere in the affairs of any other national church, which is precisely what is happening here. We do not have to march in lockstep into the future as members of this Communion, but if we are to be in communion than we need to respect the decisions of others.

[Jenny]

I see Susan Russell posting here, the one who views Africans as useful props to exploit. She's rather like those who are referred to as chicken hawks, pimping out children to make a profit.

She should spend some time humbling herself and examining her motives. I dare say that when she tries to cast aspercions, she should remember that for the one finger she points away, four remain pointing back at herself.

[Lapinbizarre]

The demand that TEC "cease court actions with immediate effect" makes it abundantly clear who is pulling the strings here.

[Kate]

Now, as I have long suspected, the very unGodly but true political nature of GAFCON is revealed in the language of "post colonial era' (Jon) and "final end .. the very end of their domination of the world" (William Sulik).

Post-colonial rhetoric as spewed regularly by Akinola has insinuated itself into the mindset of his western conservative supporters.

Such bitterness, and from Akinola, anti-white racism, has nothing to do with religion. In case you have failed to notice folks, Africa has been 'post-colonial' for quite a few decades now.

In contrast to their Asian 'cousins 'liberated' around the same time, they have achieved precisely NOTHING. The west is still filling the begging bowl whilst African leaders stockpile more arms, build more palaces, invest in more Cadillacs, fill private bank accounts, send their children abroad to be educated whilst at the same time starving and beating their indigenous populations into submission.

I'm afraid the old post-colonialist 'rape and pillage' argument won't do. Two of the most bountiful 'breadbaskets' in Africa - Kenya and Zimbabwe - have been wrecked by their own governments. The virus is endemic across the whole continent. Akinola's Nigeria is ravaged by tribal violence whilst he 'strides the globe' in designer sunglasses.

As Kevin Myers wrote recently:

"There is, no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system [Africa]; but I do not know what it is.

It is nearly 25 years since Ethiopia's ...Feed The World campaign, and in that time Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78 million today. ...

Somalia, [is] another fine land of violent, Kalashnikov toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts....

... we now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world...

Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre, Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera."
(http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/
kevin-myers/africa-is-giving-nothing-to-anyone--
apart-from-aids)

The story of Africa is one of greed, revenge and dependency. I'm sure there are fine, innocent people suffering there BUT the tribal 'Big Man' rules supreme. Sadly American fundamentalists 'high' on the khat are handing over their dioceses.

Orientalists to a man and woman they believe they KNOW what Akinola really thinks and 'means'. Ignorant in any meaningful sense of African 'ways', they have a shock ahead. Akinola is NOT a 'useful idiot' - he is a 'Big Man' within the church; a man with energy and huge political ambition. Mr Sulk and Jon clearly applaud that ambition.

Those who seek oversight from Africa should do a little research into the history of the continent under African rule and then prepare themselves to submit to dictatorship.

For those of us 'left behind', let us rejoice in our silly old Anglican common sense, humanity, decency and freedom to worship in the via media.

[David]

The issue is not that Gene Robinson is gay, there have been previous respected Bishops and Archbishops who were gay. Nor is the issue that Gene is open about his sexuality. The issue is that his sexual behaviour and relationship is unacceptable for Christians.

Just like the rest of liberal western culture, the liberal Episcopals are way out of line with standard christianity on this.
Sexual freedom is not a Christian value! Nor is sexual fulfilment, nor even 'being in a relationship with the person you love'.

Why can't non-Christians just get a life and leave us to live life our way... and the liberal Episcopals start their own religion? With all our restrictions and "taboos" Christians still regularly rate highest in published surveys of happiness, wellbeing and longevity etc. :-)

[Jamie MacNab]

The church is bound to pick up the flavours of whatever age it finds itself in. Today, everyone wants consequence-free sex ; so the church is caught up in this desire for homosexuality. What it must remember is, that the passing flavours ought not to become permanent doctrine. What would the church be like if the martiality of the middle-ages had been institutionalised in doctrine? or the snobbery of the nineteenth century?

The point is that church is governed by moral laws ; laws not of its making ; laws which can fight off the passing infections. But if you start tinkering with the moral laws, then the infections will become chronic. More importantly, they will be unGodly. Such a church will ultimately fail. It will most likely fall into a rather unpleasant narcissism.

Thank God that the CofE is only a backwater in the larger stream of Christianity. Its fate is not a matter of survival to our religion, but one of emotional attachment. We all love the CofE ; don't let it harm itself too much.

[Merseymike]

A bit of a cheek for anyone in Sudan, of all places, to tall the US how to run its affairs.

Lets see instead his view and that of the fundamentalist Muslim as two sides of the same coin. And look where it gets us - the paragon of democracy and peace we see in Sudan.

It really is about time these people went one way and started to fund their own fundamentalist church. These sort of views are simply nor acceptable in the UK, and the CofE cannot accept premodern, primitive thinking such as this as central to its belief.

[William Sulik]

I would like to hear what the Bishop actually said, not merely what reporters think he said - no offense Ms. Gledhill. Another reporter, Cherie Wetzel, who is sympathetic to Bp. Deng has much more of the press conference - including the fact that the Anglican Communion News Bureau refused to give him time and space for a conference. Her report may be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/6qrcy2

She also has the following for the creation quote:

“The culture does not change the Bible; the Bible changes the culture. Cultures that do not approve of the Bible are left out of the Church’s life; people who do not believe in the Bible are left out of our churches. The American church is saying that God made a mistake. He made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Adam."

Ruth has this as: 'God is not making a mistake creating Adam and Eve . . . He would have created two Adams if he wanted.'

This is why I would like to hear Bp. Deng's conference myself.

[S Huston]

In places where bishops are appointed rather than elected, can they be said to represent anyone other than the person(s) who put them in that position? TEC bishops represent their dioceses. And most tend to follow Jesus who said nothing about the issue that others seem to find so divisive.

[Jon]

Andrew Gerns (above) calls for patience, since:

"...These statements [by the Global South] are premature and only reflect the impatience of those who say them."

Right. So let me get this straight. The problem is that the (mostly African) Global South just don't understand the indaba process. Thankfully, Rowan Williams and Cathrine Jefferts Schori are here to educate the primitive and tribal Global South on what the TRUE spirit of indaba is. Then they will learn to be more patient and tolerant, and can begin blessing (for example) gay marriage.

Andrew, your call for patience is hard to hear above the screaming bigotry implied in your comment.

No wonder GAFCON and the Global South are so quickly moving the Communion to the new, post colonial era.

Thank God.

[A concerned chap]

Good! At last the C of E Liberal wing can get a taste of their own medicine. Could not happen to a nicer bunch of people! Gene, Queen Jeffer's and the rest should do us all a favour and return to where the came, stay there while we sort out the problems they have caused!

[Jon]

Andrew Gerns (above) calls for patience, since:

"...These statements [by the Global South] are premature and only reflect the impatience of those who say them."

Right. So let me get this straight. The problem is that the (mostly African) Global South just don't understand the indaba process. Thankfully, Rowan Williams and Cathrine Jefferts Schori are here to educate the primitive and tribal Global South on what the TRUE spirit of indaba is. Then they will learn to be more patient and tolerant, and can begin blessing (for example) gay marriage.

Andrew, your call for patience is hard to hear above the screaming bigotry implied in your comment.

No wonder GAFCON and the Global South are so quickly moving the Communion to the new, post colonial era.

Thank God.

[Dan]

Sudan's expenses were, picked up by The Episcopal Church, USA, not Ahmanson, if that is what was meant to be implied by Lapinbizarre's comment.

[Lapinbizarre]

Oh, I think FunnyBunny's got the right target, Mr. Cohen.

"The TEC money is there in droves - 125 of them." Interesting syntax

[William Sulik]

Thinking some more - this is an extremely significant point in history - and not insofar as what it means for the Church of England.

This could be the pivot point for what Gandhi started over 80 years ago - the final end of colonialism. These bishops from ECUSA, COE and Canada -- the chaplains of the Empire - are witnessing the end - the very end of their domination of the rest of the world.

For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

[s a russell]

This is not the Anglican Communion falling apart. What is being said was going to be said anyway and at least it comes in a straightforward statement of belief. The Communion is divided over the issue; the reponses on all sides have sometimes been unchristian in the recent past. What do people think would happen when issues become polarised? Perhaps a review of church history (in its widest sense) would help those who comment on the possable future to be more sensible.

[David Cohen]

FunnyBunny has the wrong target. The TEC money is there in droves - 125 of them - but there is not enough to pay for the Conference. Could it be that Dr Schori has been dipping too heavily into the reserves in order to fund the lawsuits?

[Martial Artist]

I should think that whether or not any particular thing "looks good" is very much in the eyes of the beholder. That seems to be the Zeitgeist in the progressive wing of the Anglican communion at the moment, doesn't it?

[the Reverend boy]

Unless I am mistaken, I believe that quite a few American bishops who were in support of +Gene did offer to not attend the conference. +Gene urged his brothers and sisters to do so in the interests of their voices being heard and the witness of The Episcopal Church not being even more diminished.

The ironic thing is that by not going to the conference proper, his voice is being heard even more loudly and clearly.

[William Sulik]

Once again, it was the Americans who took this radical action of provocation when they had every warning against it.

Blaming the Global South now is like blaming Winston Churchill for rallying England (and the rest of the civilized world) in the 1940s.

You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war.

In truth, the Anglican Communion has been falling apart since 2003 (or earlier). I sat in church this past weekend looking around and thinking about how many good and faithful friend had left since 2003 - we have been more than decimated - at least 40% of our congregation has left for churches which do not practice apostasy.

[KM]

I just can't think of anything whatsoever to say about the relationship between religion and homosexuality.
Not even a flippant aside.

I am BORED with it!
Yes yes yes I know human rights Biblical tradition the legitimacy of authority the eternal yay or nay should we allow difference etc etc it's all very worthy and important but I am BORED!

Will you pass my feelings onto the Conference please, Ruth, I would like them to choose a new topic to talk about.

[Jon]

[quote]'Those Bishops who stand in solidarity with Gene Robinson should withdraw themselves from further participation in the Lambeth Conference... Integrity and honesty would dictate that they should stand with Gene - excluded from full participation in the Lambeth Conference.'[/quote]

Finally, a voice of reason come out amongst the mind numbing din of "let's all just get alon" rhetoric.

The 150 bishops of the Global South represent more than 75% of Anglicans worldwide.

[Katherine, USA]

Whether this looks good or not depends upon one's point of view, of course. Would not straightforward discussions have been preferable to this convoluted non-process the conference designers imposed? Adult bishops and, it seems, the press, are being treated like children.

[Andrew Gerns]

In the early stages of an appreciative process like Indaba, this kind of reaction is not unusual nor surprising.

Those who want/prefer a legislative process where there are clear-cut winners and losers will not be patient with this kind of process.

These statements are premature and only reflect the impatience of those who say them. I would be hesitant to infer any more than that at this point.

The process has only begun and it is too soon to pronounce the death of the communion or anything else.

Patience.

[Lapinbizarre]

So Ahmanson's money did make it to Lambeth. He who pays the piper ....