Lambeth diary: Rival strategies unveiled

The bishops of The Episcopal Church have come to the Lambeth Conference well- briefed on how to present their arguments cogently and persuasively in the indaba groups. Dr Philip Turner, former Dean of the Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, has written analysis of this for the Anglican Communion Institute, of which he is VP. The full briefing document is here . Common Cause Partnership, Bishop Bob Duncan's group, is petitioning Gafcon for province status, giving Gafcon virtual ecclesial authority. And I understand that when the next report of the Windsor Continuation Group is published next week, it will contain a 'bombshell' that will be pleasing to the conservative evangelial side but not so perhaps to the liberals. There is also news from the Anglican Mainstream fringe meeting at the conference last night. Conservative evangelical bishops, who we were asked not to name, were told: 'In indaba group after indaba group, find out how many people support resolution 1.10. [The one ten years ago that enforced a traditional, Biblical stance on gay sex.] I am putting my hand up in my indaba group, I invite my brothers and sisters to do the same when they get the opportunity.' So it appears, you can take indaba out of Africa, but you can't take good old democratic infighting out of the West. It's business as usual at Lambeth, and one way or another, these 650 bishops are determined to have a vote and make it count.

Picture from the Lambeth Conference Market Place by Richard Pohle.

According to Dr Turner, the TEC memo is 'manifestly also a method designed to keep a large group of people “on message” so that TEC’s bishops will remain on the same page.  It is manifest also that the memo signals a hardened position on the part of TEC’s Episcopal leadership that runs counter to the spirit the Archbishop of Canterbury has asked to guide the bishops in their deliberations—a spirit of mutual subjection in Christ that is open to correction.'

You can read his entire paper here .

The AM meeting opened with a quotation from the Book of Jude on sin and sensuality, and from Charles Dickens: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."

'There are storm clouds on the horizon,' one bishop said: 'It is very important for those of us who belong to a church in an island which during the course of history has protected us a lot - it is possible for us to become insular and to think that the problems will not come here. The problems writ large elsewhere in the communion are creeping, running into England.'

He refused to licence a man recently who admitted he had been in an active gay relationship. 'He's come out publicly as a praactising homosexual. he has also been involved in crusading for gay rights. He asked me for a licence and was tremendously upset that I wasn't prepared to give it to him.' The man also had more than 25 years of active, committed and effective ministry in the Church.

'I said it was not my job to judge. but church's discipline was that he could not be licensed. He said to me: that may be the official position of the church. But you know on the ground it is different and you need to catch up with where things are on the ground.'

The Common Cause province initiative has been explained to me thus: 'What Common Cause is doing is
asking the GAFCON primates council to recognize us as having similar status to the other provinces (Uganda, Nigeria, etc) that participate within the movement.  This is clearly very meaningful as we relate to
that portion of the Anglican Communion that is part of GAFCON.  We recognize, however, that it does not necessarily change our relationships with that part of the Communion that is not part of the
GAFCON movement.'

Comments

[George Parr]

NP; there is no answer from God over the question over who should be ordained. The selected theory within this constructed debate is a nonsense. Judgment over this and other related issues is based on a variance of human worth - valuing some people higher than others, which most rational people would consider unacceptable.

[Dr Alan Marsh]

In Christian doctrine it is the Logos - the Word of God who creates - and the result is not chaos, but order.

See John 1.1-3

[Judith A. Sato]

Posted earlier by Dr. Alan March, July 24, 2008 at 9:31PM:
"The time has come to restore order in the Church".

My question is why? It is out of chaos that the Holy Spirit comes and something new is created.

This is what I'm waiting for since neither the Conservative nor the Liberal cultures of the church seem to be focusing on God.

[NP]

Nobody sensible would suggest that an unrepentant thief should be ordained....but we get no answer to a simple question from George or Mark.....because doing so would involve the admission that judgments have to be made......and are made, on various issues, on every single person who wants to be ordained. It is disingenuos to try and pretend we must not make judgments.

The key point is that those judgments must not be mine or Mark's or George's view.....they must be based on God's revealed will. If he says some people are not fit to be clergy, I am going to listen to Him rather than George or Mark.

[JPM]

It's a good thing that Mr. Radford constantly announces that he is a Christian; otherwise no one would ever suspect it.

[Theo Dexter]

Consider

"I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more."

[James F. Warren]

Not much love and charity here - just judgment and self-righteousness in abundance and visceral hatred of gay people and those of us who want them accepted on equal terms. The traditionalists may yet keep the AC stuck to old attitudes that our society no longer regards as acceptable, but count me out. I believe the vast majority of TEC members would say the same thing.

[George Parr]

NP your comparison is flawed and bears no relevance to the issue. The only tenuous link is one of a human being being judged by his peers as opposed to a few of his peers going by their own prejudiced agenda.

[Fr Mark]

NP: or a woman, then? or a divorcee? or someone who has lent/borrowed money at interest? or someone who passes judgment on his neighbour?

[NP]

So George and Mark, you would ordain an unrepentant thief who claims his stealing is natural and, in fact, good and holy even though it is clearly incompatible with scripture??????

Seriously, what would you do with such a human being?

[George Parr]

Dear Mr Radford, the word is 'empirical'. And don't patronise me by rudely calling me 'dear', because you think that it serves a pejorative purpose in the context of a discussion concerning the way Anglicans discriminate over gender and sexuality. It may surprise you to know that heterosexuals like me take an interest in human rights and the way that faith groups seek to subvert them. In aiming blows at women and gay or lesbian people Anglicans should not regard themselves as attacking a soft target. There is much wider support for taking a stance on the issue than you may think.

Your post does not appear to make much sense. My 'agenda' is not about me, unlike the self-reverential nonsense expressed by carping 'traditionalist' clergy. If you do not have an ancient biblical perspective, limited by ignoring two millenia of progress, what modern criteria are you relying on to support your discriminatory views?

In highlighting open-mindedness as an issue that needs to be somehow proved are you saying that you prefer closed minds? You might notice that Anglicanism has a considerably attenuated relevance within society, much of which comprises free-thinking people who are able to make up their own minds. Open-minded Christians therefore are nearer, arguably, to the society they inhabit than pious medievalists.

The way some Anglicans have valued some people more than others in handling these sensitive issues is an utter disgrace. Happily those Christians with a gentle faith that I often associate with are in the majority.

[George Parr]

So who are you suggesting should leave the Anglican Church then Mr Marsh - all the hundreds of thousands of open-minds who, by your definition, are not living by Christian teaching because they do not discriminate over women and sexuality?

If churches do not represent the cultures they exist in, then their members must be wholly elitist with an autonomous agenda surely.

If, as an institution, the Anglican Church is an unchanging monolith, why does it demonstrate a political spectrum in which only a percentage of its members are conservative? You are not speaking for the composite in airing your unbending views are you? So you must be nearer in your ideological stance than those who take a more liberal view. Are you therefore a Christian of higher value?

[Fr Mark]

And, Blair Radford, the worst lobby is not the liberal gay lobby, it is the closet gay conservative anti-women lobby, which says one thing and does another. This is a very large proportion of the anti-women SSC brigade in the C of E: too scared to come out of the closet, but determined to keep a "safe" space where they are left alone to camp it up.

[Fr Mark]

What a load of fascist comments I seem to have elicited on here - String 'em up! Shoot the lot of 'em! Chop their whatsits off! - that appears to be about the tenor of the rhetoric from these lovely righteous "Christians."

Well, for your information, I was brought up Christian and happen to be gay. It's my Church as much as anyone else's, and I'm no less Christian than any of the self-righteous people who are telling me on here how I have to live.

Furthermore, gay Christians are, surprising as this may sound to you, most often produced by straight Christians. Which means it is perfectly possible that any of you charming straight string 'em uppers on here could have a gay child/grandchild/niece/nephew/etc. And when you do, they will be glad of any Christians left who can listen to them, accept them and love them as they are, without condemning them, rather in the way Jesus would have done.

[blair.radford]

George,
Oh dear you missed the point dear. The point Alan and I seek to make is a simple one. Don't join the church seeking ministry when you want to be in an open physical homosexual relationship. 1.10 is very clear about the issue of compatibility of the two. In other words if your Gay and you do seek ministry you need to be able to put your hand on your heart and be able to resist the temptation of physical vice.

Where is your imperial proof that open minded anglicans are a more accurate representation of society. Nice if that was true but sadly it's not.
Can I remind you it is a matter of peoples belief and faith coupled with the churches current teaching that keeps the discriminators, allegedly, in the AC.
We were all baptised into the same AC why oh why can we not agree to differ while respecting each others views.

Stop the press Church work shows ancient and wholly limited biblical perspective.
How silly! What else would you like to change and or rewrite in order to facilitate a 'me and now' secular agenda.

Good luck but the tide, again sadly, seems to be turning against the liberal AC just when they had allowed themselves to bask in the post Gen Sy glow on women Bishops. My advice is dont count your chickens before they hatch... on all these issues!

[Dr Alan Marsh]

Dear Mr Parr

The purpose of the church is not to reflect the prevalent secular culture of surrounding society.

The Sudanese archbishop was right when he said, in effect, that the bible changes the culture, and not vice-versa.

Those who do not wish to live according to Christian teaching are entirely free to adopt secular mores and live accordingly. Those who wish to be part of a sacramental Body defined by Christian doctrine must expect that Body to maintain its own identity and order. In particular its ordained ministers should not be at liberty to subvert Christian morality, either by their own lifestyle or their teaching.

[Geoffrey Smith]

"The time has come to restore order in the Church".
- Dr Alan Marsh, 24 JUL 2008, 21:31:32

For once, Alan, you and I are in full agreement. The question is: who is going to restore order, and, even more important, who is going to enforce it? Without a central authority, such as the papacy, it is rather an academic proposition, don't you think?

[George Parr]

NP your comparison is wholly flawed. A range of factors surrounds why people steal or carry out other actions generally regarded by society as unacceptable. Some members of faith groups remain isolated within a tolerant society that increasingly understands that human sexuality is not a matter of sinning, and that consequently an ancient and wholly limited biblical perspective is illogical.

Your post is also offensive since you draw comparisons between Fr Mark and thieves.

If the level of discrimination over sexuality or gender currently expressed within the Anglican Church took place in the secular workplace, there would be human rights issues to address.

Alan Marsh, since 'membership of the church is entirely voluntary' etc. why should those who discriminate against lesbians and gays assume that an option to remain within it should be defined by their judgmental attitude? There are very many open-minded Anglicans who think differently - and they are a more accurate representation of the society the Anglican church exists in.

[blair.radford]

Fr Mark,
Revelation! You could all try to live a godly righteous and christian life as many priests, clergy and ministers do. If you cant you should not be in the church its as simple as that. No one wants to get rid of anyone but we want people who can lead by example within the churches current teaching and if you cant, well, one would hope you have the moral courage to admit that and leave until such time as the church has a different view and teaching.

Like all walks of life, straight and gay, sometimes you just have to have the strength to keep it zipped! If more people did that maybe we would have less infidelity, cheating and divorce! You sound, sadly, like a proud member of the "me and now' cult.
What really annoys me is the whining that people like you make us endure. As a christian I am sympathetic but only when you realise that in life and the choices you make there are conquences. No good complaining about them afterward and that seems to be the essence of what your doing. If you dont like the status quo you have a choice, change and if you cant or as in most cases wont then you have to ask yourself the question should I then stay.

You comment about the Roman Catholic clergy is below you but the same principal applies Im afraid.

I do challange you to tell me exactly what percentage of the clergy C of E and RC are practicing homesexuals. I bet you wont because it so small as to not really affect the wider issue of 1.10.

A health dose of helping yourself rather than complaining that it all our fault would help!

[blair.radford]

From my lay perspective it seems that the gay and liberal lobby want to have their cake and eat it.
Fr Mark is, however, right and there, of course, is a simple solution. We stop the practice here and now and ask those are who are Gay to leave the ministry with no provisions for them at all.
Sound familiar? No?
It will if your an Anglo Catholic after the General Syn ...
The difference is if you were Gay and put into this situation then it would rate as a hate crime of sorts and discrimination against you. But not, of course, the other way around when its a matter of belief and faith head to head with a secular issue... of course this will never happen. It would take too much moral courage.

But maybe it is time to harden our hearts and make the difficult choices. The path of most resistance is always the hardest but in the end, almost always, proves to be the right one. 1.10 must be enforced until something else, better of worse depending on who you are, takes its place.

The issue of TEC is interesting. If they are stupid, and I don't apologise for saying that, enough to have allowed them selfs to be overtaken with a secular liberal agenda issue to the exclusion of other equally important ones then they have made their own bed. Discussion and consultation yes but jack booting no! Anyone who takes an interest in TEC will know how much they try to keep hidden, in terms of what is practiced policy wise within TEC. Rather like the Canadian problems eluded to else where in the comments to this blog! Queen Jeffers has a my way or the high way policy about VGR in her church! No allowance for what you think or feel or in faith believe. Well its time that the AC give them a taste of hers and TEC's own medicine and very unpalatable it will be as well. Its our way or the highway my dear!
Lets cut them and their grubby money away and leave them to it! Better poor and happy rather than in hock to TEC! In ten years they will have no church if they are not more christian in their views, given how their support and attendance continues to fall away. They are the worst of the 'me and now' cult that seems so at odds with the teaching of the AC. Cut off the lifeline and oxygen of publicity and I bet you my bottom dollar they (Queen Jeffers and VGR) will soon pop up in another guise with another cause and agenda to shout about and it will not be the church ... How long before one of them tries to become a US Senator just to have another platform - answers on a postcard people to VGR, secular agenda avenue, Its all about the church, honest Gov, town ...

[Dr Alan Marsh]

If things are as you say, Mark, the hypocrisy is firmly the responsibility of those who tell lies and deceive others.

Nobody is forced to be ordained.

Membership of the Church is entirely voluntary.

[NP]

Mark - if someone was a thief and would not stop stealing but even asserted their behaviour was good and holy, I would not think him fit to be a vicar.

I guess you would argue that I am discriminating against thieves?

[Fr Mark]

But, Alan and Pres Mark, you can never get rid of us from the Church. We are history's great survivors. We have always been there and always will be.

All you can do is create a situation where gay people get married to try to hide their sexuality, subjecting thousands of spouses to lives of misery, as was the case until recently in England; you can create a situation where we get blackmailed and driven to suicide, as happened in England until the legal changes of the 1960s; you can create a situation where we are driven to doing what the RC clergy do and have sex only in anonymous or coercive settings.

So you think those things, which our society, rightly and Christianly, sees as an awful tradition of hypocrisy and homophobia, are the way forward then?

[NP]

No surprise.....TEC has not been listening for years...just doing what it wants, giving fait accomplis and expecting a pathetic response which allows them to get away with condoning behaviour which is "incompatible with scripture"

Now the ABC and LamPal bureaucrats have wasted 5 years avoiding the recommendations of the Primates, Windsor etc, if they can fudge things at this conference, their reward will be TEC and Canada putting more "facts on the ground" in the coming years....and the crisis will carry on.

This is why GAFCON (300+ bishops who represent about 3/4 of Anglicans in the world) did not bother coming to a 3 week talking shop specifically designed to avoid any discipline on those who reject the bible on certain issues. They have missed tea with the queen and a nice banquet at LamPal......but 3 weeks of chat designed to achieve nothing is a waste of time.

Why does TEC (0.8m on a Sunday, 0.27% of the US population) want to stay in the AC despite rejecting the biblical views most Anglicans and their bishops on certain issues? Because without the AC, TEC is just a small, declining US sect, hijacked by a particular agenda. It needs the AC in order to appear significant and have a voice....
Why are they so influential over LamPal? $$$$$$$$ (inherited money from people who never imagined the drift in "theology" that we see in TEC)

But there are still some great TEC bishops eg Ackerman, Iker and Duncan. THey are in a minority these days. The CofE will go the same way if people don't wake up to the political strategies of those pushing particular agendas and manipulating the levers of power and bureaucracy

[Dr Alan Marsh]

The only proper solution to Mark's dilemma is to stop ordaining those who live in an unbiblical relationship or whose lifestyle is incompatible with Resolution 1.10.

Hopefully that will begin to happen once Lambeth is over and it is plain to everyone that the generosity which has been afforded to those who challenge biblical teaching has been abused, by those who now wish to have their lifestyle, contrary to the scriptures, to be blessed.

The time has come to restore order in the Church.

[Lapinbizarre]

Too late for GAFCON but just in time for the end of Lambeth:

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260257432914

[Presbyter Mark]

Fr Mark "Since the last Lambeth Conference and its stupid resolution on this topic, the C of E has operated a "don't ask, don't tell policy.""
There you go again with your slanted language! Stupid? Or scriptural, sound, healthy and faithful?
Having said that, I agree with your concern that the current CofE position is unworkable. Far better for Bishops to ask and for practising gay clergy to tell the truth and not to lie, which may fool their bishop but does not fool God who sees everything.
However, I guess that is where we would then divide as the biblical way forward would seem to be for Bishops to refuse to ordain such ordinands and for serving clergy to be asked to repent or to leave their posts.

[Robert Ian Williams]

Ruth super detective....have you found out who signed the GAFCON declaration and who are the Bishops actually at Lambeth...why all the secrecy...?

In Evangelicals Now, August 2008..Chris Sugden states 291 bishops signed...but I reckon that over 100 were not Anglican!

Come on Ruth...if you knew who was Archbishop of Canterbury before the Queen ..you can do this!

[Bonnie]

The exact paragraph mentioned by Mark Bennet above is number 3.

"recognises that there are among us persons who experience themselves as having a homosexual orientation. Many of these are members of the Church and are seeking the pastoral care, moral direction of the Church, and God's transforming power for the living of their lives and the ordering of relationships. We commit ourselves to listen to the experience of homosexual persons and we wish to assure them that they are loved by God and that all baptised, believing and faithful persons, regardless of sexual orientation, are full members of the Body of Christ;"

After 10 years it is time that they honored this provision. I find it difficult to believe that they ever intend to honor that provision in the absence of an invitation to +Gene Robinson.

[Malcolm+]

It is interesting that some would condemn the Episcopal Church for coordinating its media messaging, and even its approach to the indibada groups.

Ruth describes the tactics outlined at the "Anglican Mainstream" meeting - which are likewise designed to influence the outcome of the conference.

The fact is, both "sides" in this dispute are managing their media messaging and their approach to the indaba groups.

One aspect of the story of the woman caught in adultery is that only the woman is hauled up before Jesus. Now, logic dictates that she couldn't have committed adultery on her own. Yet where is her partner in this crime?

Of course, the crowd of men who hauled her up before Jesus were prepared to give the man caught in adultery a pass. And this particular bit of hypocrisy was one of the things Jesus was judging.

Condemn the Americans for organizing if you will. But to do so without an equal condemnation of the "conservatives," is no different than the gang of hypocrites who haled up the woman - and ONLY the woman - caught in adultery.

[John Bowen]

Ruth . . . You probably know that several large Canadian dioceses have voted in the last 8 months to allow the "local option" for blessing same sex couples. In each case, the bishop has withheld permission "until after Lambeth." They met together (with Bishop Michael Ingham) shortly before Lambeth, presumably to plan a joint strategy. The likely outcome is that once Lambeth is over they will all give permission for the local option to be implemented in their dioceses. And that will undoubtedly prompt yet more parishes (and dioceses?) to leave the Canadian Church. It would be interesting to know whether there is any breath of this over there. Of course, it would not suit their purpose for this to be widely known! Just wondering if you have come across this?

[William Sulik]

The Americans are a virus - they should be cast out from the body.

[Mark Bennet]

Indaba seems to me to be (in part) about listening carefully to each other and not jumping to conclusions. This in itself is consistent with the part of "Lambeth 1.10" which has been most often forgotten in the search for immediate compliance.

[David Crawford]

Anyone who thinks that TEC came to listen is just crazy. They had worked up this whole plan before they arrived. What does this really say about those who claim diversity ? They are [snip] and manipulator's of the highest kind.It is time to expose them for what they are. They are the leaders of the fastest shrinking denomination in the U.S. Why ? They have replaced Christ with the grand Vicki Robinson.May God save us !!!!

[robroy]

Your link to the ACI was to their old home page. The link to the new one (in particular to the article by Dr Turner) is here:

http://tinyurl.com/67sk94

I was struck as Dr. Turner was by the stated desire of the memo to "provide the media with no more than they want or can use."

I would disagree with the memo and Dr. Turner who states, "The memo is on solid ground when it roots our unity in Baptism." The unity is in derived by one faith not one baptism. I am very distrustful of TEC-ers who make statements like, "Our baptismal covenant DEMANDS we included GLBT into the full ministry." (Bp Smith of Arizona). They have taken the innocuous words "guard the dignity" and used them as carte blanche for all their un-Biblical innovations.

(rg writes: have now corrected link thnx)

[Fr Mark]

Since the last Lambeth Conference and its stupid resolution on this topic, the C of E has operated a "don't ask, don't tell policy." It employs a very large number of practising homosexuals, and always has done, but on the basis that they say nothing in public about their closest relationship. However, straight married clergy are expected to integrate their relationships with their wives as much as possible with their church roles.

It is an evil system, pure and simple, and one that destroys integrity and honesty. There is an urgent need for it to improve and for the English bishops to stop being such hypocrites. They have all ordained practising gay people, and they all employ them.