'Lightning rod for anti-Semites'

As we report, the row over the 'alternative lessons and carols' at St James' Picadilly last Wednesday is escalating as the implications begin to sink in of a part of the established Church of England allowing itself to be used for such abhorrent anti-Zionist propaganda. In one of the most important posts she has done for a while, Irene Lancaster draws together today some of the threads of why this was both significant and a shameful disgrace to Sir Christopher Wren's beautiful church and the wider Christian community, most of which must surely share her dismay. Jonathan Hoffman, vice-chairman of the Zionist Federation, and who demonstrated outside the event, told me: 'These things are a lightning rod for anti-Semites. This was an event which offended 99.9 per cent of Jews and about 95 per cent of Christians, an event which should never have taken place. To take carols and doctor them in order to vilify Israel is really unacceptable.' He claimed the event was being touted outside St James' as a normal carol service. 'We were able to disabuse people and dissuaded about 10 people from going in.'

Irene wrote to Lambeth Palace about the service, and was told this by a member of the Archbishop of Canterbury's staff: 'This is not a matter for the Archbishop or the CofE nationally to comment as it so obviously is a piece of rather unpleasant publicity seeking by a collection of small groups who should not be encouraged by being given attention. My mother used to say of us when we were misbehaving: 'Don't take any notice, it only encourages them' . St James' is in the diocese of London and has a long idiosyncratic history. It is no more reflective of the views of the Church of England than Jews for boycotting Israel is reflective of the Jewish community.'

One fact used in defence of this event, as the organisers insist on describing it, even though promoting it 'nine lessons and carols' is a direct mirror of the style of a carol service, is that it was organised by members of the Jewish community. This should not be allowed to inhibit legitimate criticism. Harry's Place has an interesting comment on the service, and on some of those members of Britain's Jewish community who are also anti-Zionist.

This is what Michael Gove says in The Times today:

'One thing that has sent me ballistic this week is the decision by St James's Piccadilly to host a special service in which the words of traditional carols have been rewritten to convey an anti-Israeli message. The service is part of a broader campaign to encourage the boycott of goods from Israel, much as we once boycotted goods from South Africa.

'Apart from pointing out that declining to buy things on the ground that they're made by Jewish people is not, historically, a good road to go down, I am staggered that people should equate a democracy struggling to preserve human rights in the face of terrorist assault with the apartheid regime. And I am speechless at a church's collaboration with this festival of anti-Semitism. So I shall use another's words and ask that they be forgiven, for clearly, they cannot know the enormity of what they do.'

Just a minor point of interest. The Rector of St James' has been inundated with complaints and is wisely thinking twice about whether he should hold the service again. Perhaps he should have thought that through in the first place. But with this in mind, I called the organisers and asked them if they had any regrets.

They then emailed me and The Times, separately, claiming Michael's piece is 'potentially libellous', and warning me not to fall into the same 'traps' in the article I'm writing for tomorrow.

I mention that, folks, just so you know what you're up against. But then, you probably did already.

This picture of the security barrier was taken by 'Will' and relates to his comment below.

Here are a few verses.

ONCE IN ROYAL DAVID'S CITY

Once in royal David's city
Stood a big apartheid wall;
People entering and leaving
Had to pass a checkpoint hall.
Bethlehem was strangulated,
And her children segregated.

O COME ALL YE FAITHFUL

O come all ye faithful,
All who care for justice,
O look ye, O look ye at Bethlehem.
Come and behold it
Under occupation.
O come, let's not ignore it,
O come, let's not ignore it,
O come, let's not ignore it,
Tell the world.

THE OLIVE AND THE ARMY

The olive and the army
When they are both full-grown,
Every olive tree on the West Bank
The IDF cuts down.

O the rampaging of settlers
And the rolling of the tanks;
The grinding of the bulldozers
As the olives fall in ranks.

The olive bears a berry
As green as any grass;
When the owners go to pick the fruit
They're not allowed to pass.

Comments

[Kate]

The TRUTH sayer: "You lost Kate."

Of course I did Basil:"Don't mention the war"!

One is 'crushed' by the weight of your pc lexicon, compelling evidence and rigour. Godwin's Law is an invention of people (like you) who would wipe out history to conceal its corollary; Jew haters who have discovered another reason for hating.

[The Truth Hurts]

"Boy, would you have gone 'up the ladder 'fast in Nazi-land:"
Kate, 14 Dec. 2008

I hereby invoke Godwin's Law.

For your information Kate, this law states that in a blog posting, the first to accuse another of being a Nazi, automatically loses the debate and all postings immediately cease on the topic.

And the New York Times corollary to this law which states that a trap door automatically opens under the loser (you Kate).

You lost Kate.

[Kate]

"If my beliefs offend 99.9% of the Jews, well, hard cheese." posted by 'THE TRUTH HURTS'.

Wow! That pseudoymn"! Thanks for making me laugh, a welcome relief from feeling sick. Clearly, since you are all talking to yourselves, on the Ron Prosser thread, you need to spread the bile.

"... much time and effort in your long winded ramblings but I suspect that very few people bother to wade through.... "Brevity" hits harder."

What? I'm supposed to take cognisance of a Jew-hater? Whoops, I mean anti-Israeli. I have NO interest in your opinions. 'Final solution'? Don't read my posts. But, that is not the point is it? I present facts which you dislike.

Actually it takes very little 'time' and no 'effort'; perplexed by people assuming I can't carry facts in my head! Maybe because THEY can't, or can't be bothered. Much easier to spew emotive and unsubstantiated allegations.

The purpose is simply to inform; to counteract hysteria. That requires evidence. If ONE other person is interested enough to investigate, the purpose is served.

Talk about 'shooting yourself in the foot'; blatant contempt for "99.9% of Jews" speaks volumes. Freedom and democracy for all, including those who refuse it i.e. the Palestinians; but the JOOS! who gives a damn what 99.9% of them want?

Plus: "and yet again, we see the time honoured Jewish tactic of trying to silence any criticism of Israeli misdeeds by yelling ".. anti Semite!". (Ron Prosser thread)

What does "time honoured JEWISH tactic" mean? Israel has only been around for 60 years; the 'get out of jail free' card can't be applied.

Do you mean the 'Jewish tactic' of denying canards? Like denying they murdered Christ? Or the Blood Libel? Or the 'Jewish world conspiracy' and/or the `Protocols of the Elders of Zion'?

The 'time honoured Jewish tactic' of trying to turn the world against nice Mr Hitler in the 1930s? Valid Israeli complaints that the Brits were supplying Arabs with help and ammunition in an illegal war of aggression in 1948?

Boy, would you have gone 'up the ladder 'fast in Nazi-land:

"Richard Wagner called the Jews the "plastic demon of decomposition" and Theodor Mommsen called them the "ferment of decomposition." ... There may be a certain tragedy inherent in the nature of the Jews, but is it our fault that this race works destructively among the peoples and is a constant danger to our domestic and international security?" (Goebbels 1941)

Tell the libel often enough and the uninformed will believe. You write "Israel ...guilty of many sins, from the terrorist gangs which murdered many of our countrymen..." STOP!

Would that be the Jewish/Israeli 'terrorists' responsible for "the deadliest attack against the British during the Mandate era (1920-1948)" (BWO papers) which killed 91 people: two Irgun members; 15 Jewish civilians, 41 Arabs, 5 'others' and 28 BRITISH. The "deadliest attack" killed, not "many" but 28 British.

Telephoned warnings sent to the hotel, the Palestine Post newspaper and the French consulate were ignored. (Thurston Clarke, 'By Blood and Fire', G. P. Puttnam's Sons, New York, 1981) and (Nicholas Bethell, 'The Palestine Triangle', Andre Deutsch 1979, Futura 1970).

Yeah! Tell the libel often enough .... Them damned Joos sure are bloody good at terrorism! In the face of 6 million dead, survivors of the camps turned back to Europe or dumped in displaced person camps, they managed to kill 28 of "our countrymen".

Large numbers of Israeli Jews served under the Brits in WWII. The British betrayed them. Look up Richard Crossman MP 1946-74, one of the first British officers to enter Dachau.

"Britain's solemn commitment to create a Jewish National Home in Palestine was in fact betrayed in the hour of greatest need....."

AND 'thetruthhurts' (choke), what about your 'pals', those displaced and tortured people? 1972 Olympics? Lockerbie? Suicide bombings - planes, trains, buses, cafes - 9/11, 7/77, Madrid, Bombay, Bali.... Your 'pals' have murdered more human beings than any other terrorist organisation in history.

"As long as the Jews remain anonymous, they are secure. The moment they lose their anonymity, the racial problem became acute and required a suitable solution." (Goebbels)

Therein hangs the tale: they lost their anonymity the day the state of Israel was founded and Jew haters got a clearly defined and convenient target. They are now anti-Israel. Much 'nicer'!

It is difficult to take seriously, people who offer only opinion. But, I forget, you prefer 'brevity' it 'hits harder'. Quite. Hysteria, sentimentality, short and sharp. NEVER facts that can be checked.

Enough. I find emotionally-driven hate-mongers distasteful. But, somebody out there MIGHT believe you if it is not confronted.

Burble as you please, Islamic terrorism is the greatest threat to world civilization since WWII.

The Palestinians have proved themselves Islamic terrorists for decades. If you think that giving them Israel and clearing Jews out of the ME (another final solution) will stop it, you are either a fool or chronically uninformed on Islam.

[The Truth Hurts]

Please don't take this to heart Kate, but you are becoming....well, you know....boring.
I am sure you have dedicated much time and effort in your long winded ramblings but I suspect that very few people bother to wade through to the end of your postings.
"Brevity" hits harder Kate.
Remember that.
For all our sakes.
Please.

But back to the topic.
"So 99.9% of Jews are offended by the event in St. James's".
Well hard cheese.

I am offended by Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians in their own occupied land.
I am offended by Israeli missdeeds designed to oblige non Jews to leave east Jerusalem.
I am offended by the brutish actions of the Israeli army and the extremist, loutish, Zionist settlers in the West Bank.
I am offended by the daily theft of sub soil water resources by Israel.

If my beliefs offend 99.9% of the Jews, well, hard cheese.

[Merseymike]

Both Israel and the Palestinians have and do behave unacceptably, but to try and pretend that Israel are merely 'defending themselves' is risible.

The problem remains the geographical location of Israel, which, given that Muslims are not going to disappear tomorrow, will always be a source of conflict and a threat to world peace. I don't see very much chance of any sort of mutual agreement and unlike most on here, do not carry a torch for either side.

Under those circumstances, I'm not in the least bothered about anyone's so-called homeland. But I am concerned about the continuing effect of Israel's presence in its current geographical position. If Israel and the Palestinians would agree to live alongside each other - fine. But they won't. So, if the choice is between conflict which threatens the world, and finding Israel somewhere else they can live securely - the latter is the only option.

[Kate]

Margaret: "... an assault by an individual that results in the death of three Israeli children is quite different from the death of 70 Palestinian children resulting from the 'incursions' of the armed forces of the Israeli state?.... Are all the Palestinians to be killed because there are Muslim insurgents?"

Ah Muslim insurgents? Not Islamic terrorists?

Indeed yes. Semantics are good fun. Words mean what I say they mean - Humpty Dumpty (Alice in Wonderland). 'Insurgents' - really nice people rebelling against dictatorship? Eh! What planet do you inhabit?

It has nothing to do with simplistic 'sums' regularly inflated by men (terrorists) who actually hide behind the skirts of women, deliberately fire rockets from residential areas, and put children in the firing line to gain more international sympathy.

The curse (and philosophical lie) of moral and religious relativism results in intellectual laziness and moral sloppiness. You are aware I'm sure, of the notorious case of the 'dead' child who was not dead at all.

"The "martyrdom" death of 12-year-old Palestinian Mohammed al-Dura at the hands of Israeli soldiers – which received widespread international news coverage and spurred on the current intifada, inspiring countless "suicide bombers" to attack Israel – was actually a "staged" piece of street theater,"

"A long-term journalistic investigation conducted in France concludes that the Mohammed al-Dura affair was actually a piece of Palestinian theater – similar to the dramatic Palestinian funeral processions last April after the Israeli incursion into the Jenin refugee camp. During that public spectacle, a martyred "corpse" twice fell off the stretcher, only to hop back up and retake his place in the procession. The Palestinians had claimed 3,000 deaths in Jenin – the actual toll - 52."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31363

And doubtless you have pondered on August 2008; fierce fighting in Gaza between Fatah and Hamas, in which 11 people died and dozens more were wounded; which resulted in 180 Fatah refugees fleeing from what they called a ‘war of genocide’ by Hamas against Fatah supporters.

Unfortunately, the were not allowed by Fatah to enter the West Bank - indeed they were told by Abbas to 'return home to Gaza'??

'PA officials explained that the reason behind their refusal to absorb the new "refugees" was their desire not to encourage other residents of the Gaza Strip to leave.

"Everyone knows that if we allow people to leave the Gaza Strip, almost all the residents living there would try to cross the border into Israel," said a senior PA official. "We don't want to leave the Gaza Strip to Hamas."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331182583&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Let's re-run that: Fatah says: 'Everyone knows that if we allow people to leave the Gaza Strip, almost all the residents living there would try to cross the border into Israel'

ISRAEL? That 'genocidal' state, is seen by "almost all the residents of Gaza Strip", as a place of sanctuary. Dear me.

Israel inhabits 6% of the land held under the British Mandate. Jordan inhabits 70%. That Jordan refuses citizenship to its Palestinian brethren is NEVER discussed. That Egypt happily constructed a WALL to keep them out is never discussed.

And, remember, the so-called 'disputed' territories do not include Gaza: Gaza - land for peace - was handed to Palestinians 2005.

"At Neve Dekalim, gunman from several militant factions stormed through after Israeli soldiers left Monday morning, completing the Gaza pullout. Some Palestinians planted a flag from the ruling Fatah movement on the roof of a rabbinical college for Jewish settlers, as others set a fire inside.

The synagogue in the isolated settlement of Morag in southern Gaza was set ablaze minutes after hundreds of Palestinians stormed in." (NCB News: Sept. 12, 2005)

JOKE:
Q: What's a quick way to tell Israelis from Palestinian miltants?
A: Israelis turn deserts into gardens, Palestinian militants turn gardens into deserts.

"American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses [growing food and other agricultural products] from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash."

"Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5275655,00.html

It took the Palestinians but hours to turn the gardens they were given into barren and sterile deserts.

Do you know anything about "responsibilities" Margaret? "There were similar scenes throughout Gaza as Palestinians headed straight for empty synagogues Israel had decided to leave intact. The fires caused little structural damage in the concrete and stone structures, but Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said the buildings would be destroyed.

Accommodation and food, both destroyed because hate is an irrational obsession. Not ONE Palestinian 'leader' showed foresight but shortly afterwards Abbas was requesting MORE AID to feed and house his people.

You see Margaret, I have referred elsewhere to uninformed, crass sentimentality. Your 'affinity' and/or 'compassion' fails to penetrate the fanatical political/religious ideology of Islam; the reasons WHY they have refused land for 60 years; the reasons WHY they cannot live in peaceful neighbourliness. Something to do with a total and distinct moral decadence or degeneracy on the part of Palestinians.

ABU QASH, West Bank — Raped by her brothers and impregnated, Rofayda Qaoud refused to commit suicide, her mother recalls, even after she bought the 17-year-old a razor with which to slit her wrists.

So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family's "honour" through murder.

Even though her daughter was the crime's innocent victim – in another of the disturbingly common, if vastly under
reported, instances of "honour killings, the mother will be sentenced in two weeks, but a harsh penalty is not expected.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com//html/nationworld/2001793273_honorkilling17.html

I actually feel quite sick when educated Christians, particularly women, give unquestioning allegiance to the most immoral, misogynistic, fascist ideology of the 21st century. You do not have to 'love' Jews to ask questions, merely to have some empathy with the submissive, brain-washed women in thrall to male political ambition.

Statistics too can mean anything I want them to mean if I do not investigate the reality behind the statistics - particularly those issued by Islamists.

Let's spell it out. Israel DEFENDS itself. That is its legitimate right. Israel has not engaged in any form of terrorism since 1948. Had Israel wished to perpetrate 'genocide' on the Palestinians, there would be none of those alive today to murder Israeli citizens.

Palestinians on the other hand, have engaged in terrorist activity since 1948.

And just to, perhaps highlight, the imbalance in the world's denigration of the state of Israel:

"The Russians during the second Chechnyan War of 1999-2000 sent tactical missiles into the very core of Grozny, and may have killed tens of thousands of civilians in their hunt for Chechnyan terrorists — explaining why the United Nations later called that city the most destroyed city on earth.

Syria has never admitted to the complete destruction of Hama, once home to Muslim Brotherhood terrorists. The city suffered the fate of Carthage and was completely obliterated in 1982 by the al-Assad government, with over 30,000 missing or killed.

Did the Indian government [and the world] look the other way in 2002 when hundreds of Muslim civilians in Gujarat were killed in reprisal for Islamic violence against Hindus?"

Well yes, the world per se is only interested in demonising Israel. We could, of course, add in the millions dead and displace in Darfur but let's not 'push' analogies.

Murder of 'politicians'? Unlike you, I do not regard Islamic terrorist 'leaders' as politicians. Countries under attack have always sent in special forces to take out the leaders of fascist regimes. The plot to murder Hitler; the Special Operations Core sent in to take out leading members of the Nazi party?

However, terrorists DO murder legitimate politicians: e.g. Israeli minister of tourism, Rehavam Zeevi, and his killers, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine's vow to destroy "the entire Zionist political echelon."

George Curtis Moore and Cleo Allen Noel - two U.S. diplomats in Sudan--murdered by the PLO on March 3, 1973? 241 American Marines in Beirut in 1983? The PLO's 1985 murder of Leon Klinghoffer, an American in a wheelchair aboard the Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro?

From where I'm sitting, it is perhaps apposite to take out the 'godfathers' in the interest of saving the lives of the women and children they hide behind.

Not that Arab/Muslim governments see things that way BUT every single one of those is a dictatorship - be it a monarchy, theocracy or military state. Only in Israel is there freedom of speech and of the press, freedom of religion and the right to private property. The honest, non-violent Arab living in Israel enjoys far greater freedom than he would under any Arab regime, including, dare one mention, Hamas or the PLO.

But those freedoms mean nothing when ideology predominates over reason. Israeli Arab Knesset members have often acted treacherously against their own country - supporting "Palestinian" terrorism and visiting with Israel's most dedicated enemies - like Hizb'allah and the officials in the Iranian regime of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"MK Ahmad Tibi - a particularly wily and malicious Arab lawmaker, is on record as saying that "the Jewish character of the State of Israel must be abolished."

While not all of Israel's 1.3 million Arab citizens are enemies of the state in which they enjoy benefits unparalleled in any other Arab country, a growing number have "come out" in support of the PLO's cause celebres - the destruction of Israel.

You, of course, would agree. When will you turn your attention to the fascist and theocratic 'Islamic character' of the state of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, and the numerous others I have listed in a response to 'West Indian'?

"Are the Palestinians real people, Kate? Or are they nothing but a symbol for all that you fear?"

I'm sorry this is intellectually flaccid pseudo psychology. How do you know 'all that I fear'? You do not BUT I will tell you.

I fear any kind of fundamentalist religion or fascistic political ideology. I fear the stupidity that does not question moral relativism. I fear ALL those who hate Israel and blame the Jews for all the ills of the world. Why? Because that, in history, is, without exception the road to totalitarianism.

PS: I'm not Jewish. I'm an Irish Anglican.

[Kate]

WestIndian: "... it is nothing short of ethnic cleansing of the indigenous peoples to make room for Zionist expansion, Eretz Yisrael, into land the UN never approved."

This, I fear, is the common UNtruth perpetrated by those still intent on the oldest hatred and the elimination of the Jews.

Muslim/Islamic history shows only a lust for land expansion, conquest and "ethnic cleansing". Islam slaughtered indigenous populations, forced conversion under penalty of death, and oppressed the 'converts'.

Mohammed was an illiterate Arab trader turned warlord. To establish himself and his religion he needed land and conversions.

A megalomaniac, he began to threaten, murder and exile the Jews once they failed to show enthusiasm for Islam. His anti-Jewish sentiments are preserved in the Koran and Hadith. Today anti-Semitism reverberates throughout the Muslim world with an intensity not seen since the time of Hitler.

Early Arabic sources, clearly biased in favour of Muhammad, relate the siege and then the exile of the Bani Qaynuqa from Medina.

Next, Mohammed had the poet of the Bani Nadir murdered; he then sent the Bani Nadir an ultimatum, demanding that they all leave the country within ten days or else be beheaded.

Only one of the three Jewish tribes remained - the Bani Quraiza. Mohammed went to the market in Medina and dug trenches. Then the men of Quraiza were brought out in batches, and Muhammad and his followers cut off their heads. According to Ibn Ishaq (690), the number of dead ranged between 600 and 900. Muhammad divided their property, their women, and their children among his followers.

So began Jihad - rape, pillage, land grabs, slaughter and conquest; from the 7th to 21st century, Islam is distinguished by atrocity and lust for territory.

Even Karen Armstrong, who takes great pains to justify everything Muhammad did, can hardly keep from showing her revulsion:

"It is probably impossible for us to dissociate this story from Nazi atrocities and it will inevitably alienate people irrevocably from Muhammad."

Jihad means land grab. It means violence against all who refuse to bow the knee to Islam. Jihad is is modus operandi of Hamas.

The 'claims' of the so-called 'Palestinian' Arab/Muslims are FALSE. Land for peace has been on the table for three decades. It is the Palestinians who will not accept it.

Quite simply they CANNOT because JIHAD is a basic tenet of the religion. They prefer death to life, they prefer hate to peace, they have declared themselves willing to be satisfied only with the elimination of Israel.

Do you, Westindian, weep any tears for the black Christians of Darfur? Do you believe the Islamic Khartoum’s 21-year assault against the African peoples of southern Sudan is NOT genocide?

Palestinians (Fatah and Hamas) have received billions in international Aid. OUR taxes. Hamas trashed Gaza and use it as a rocket range. They have massacred their own Muslim brethren, Fatah. They persecute Palestinian Christians.

Everywhere in the modern world where Muslims settle or rule, there is segregation and violence. This friend, is because they believe they have the right to colonise, settle and be supported by the indigenous people of those countries.

I quote the one-eyed, hook-handed Abu Hamza on years of welfare benefit in England: ""I never lived off their money.... I take back from them the booty they plundered from the Muslim lands, in accordance with my needs. This is money that originally belonged to Muslims. What they invest of this money in Muslims here [in Britain] is leftovers and crumbs of bread in comparison with the meat and honey that they eat in our land."

Yup! Muslims have the 'right' to everything; your country, your hard-earned money, your dhimmitude. Mohammed said in the Koran that the whole world belonged to Allah. That means it belongs to Muslims. Even the lowliest, most illiterate, thieving Muslim is superior to YOU Westindian.

And, boy, are you and your ilk confirming all that rubbish. The fifth column Muslim Brotherhood and their covert 'useful idiots' are eating their jihadist way into British society - they have already been successful in invading huge swathes of land, of colonising and segregating, of Sharia Law and Sharia banking by stealth and the establishment of third level Muslim-only institutions e.g.

"The Markfield Institute of Higher Education, Markfield, Leicestershire, which started in September 2000, is the first academic institution of its kind in the west. It presents a unique opportunity to study Islam in an Islamic institution within the context of Higher Education in the UK: DirectorDr Ataullah Siddiqui.

Keep preaching Jew-hate, keep on spewing historical 'taqiyya'; keep praying for the elimination of Israel - may God be good to those who must suffer the consequences.

Uninformed, crass sentimentalists, ignorant of history and the tenets of Islam have grasped at the straw of interfaith sessions with Muslims and have convinced themselves that Islam is one of the great monotheistic religions and is possessed of identical value systems.

It IS NOT and DOES NOT have identical value systems. Our Lord preached peace and goodwill towards all men. Islam means 'submission' - colonisation, conquest, conversion and violence.

Here are the countries with Muslim majorities - in almost all of these there are shocking violations of human rights; all other religious groupings are persecuted, or at the very least denied equal civil rights :

Afghanistan, Albana, Algeria, Bahrain,
Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Dahomey, Egypt, Ethiopia,
Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Indonesia,
Iran, Iraq, Ivory Coast, Jordan, Kuwait,
Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Maldive Islands,
Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria
Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia,
South Yemen, Sudan, Syria, Tanzania,
Togo, Tunisia, Turkey, U.A.E, Upper Volta,
North Yemen.

Here are the countries with a Muslim minority. In practically every one, Muslims segregate themselves into colonies, spread fear and hate, incite riots, intimidate the indigenous population and demand 'special' privilege for their religion. They kill each other and they kill non-Muslims - Munich Games, 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali, Mumbai 2008, Indian parliament, Beslan, U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Saalam, Tanzania, U.S. Marine and French barracks, Beirut, Lebanon, Lockerbie, Uganda, Kuta, Indonesia; commuter trains in Mumbai (2007), Moscow theatre, Aeroflot airliner, Siberia.

AND, that is only a fraction of the innocent life destroyed by Muslims in their fanatical intent to establish a world-wide Caliphate.

Quite wonderful how all this escapes the notice of those screaming 'We are all Hizbullah/Hamas now'. Not me buddy. I would not insult my intelligence.

[Margaret]

Kate:

Do you not believe the fatality and casualty statistics? Or are you not able, for some reason, to recognize that an assault by an individual that results in the death of three Israeli children is quite different from the death of 70 Palestinian children resulting from the 'incursions' of the armed forces of the Israeli state?.

When have Israeli politicians been 'targeted' for 'assassination' by the Palestinian government? When has Israel been besieged or blockaded?

Are the Palestinians building walls to confine Israeli citizens in specific areas, cutting them off from their orchards and the ancestral grounds on which their herds grazed, forbidding them not only the use of major roadways but the freedom of open ground on which children can play?

Is Israel fighting 'Islam' when it keeps Palestinians from beaches and ports?

Or do you believe that some people are entitled to the pleasures of the seaside and the ability to carry on commerce, while there is good reason to withhold such entitlement from others?

Are all the Palestinians to be killed because there are Muslim insurgents?

Are the Palestinians real people, Kate? Or are they nothing but a symbol for all that you fear?

Forget the labels: Deaths and injuries during eight years of an ongoing conflict totaled 37,910 people from one group and 9,403 of a second. Who would you consider the more aggressive 'enemy'? Who the most in need of defense and support?

In a country shared by two groups of people, a division is considered in which one group of people is confined to 22% of the land while a second group is given 78%. Why is such a division presented as acceptable?

Because those who kill the most people deserve the most land?

Is that really the kind of world you want to live in?

[WestIndian]

I heartily applaud St. James Piccadilly for hosting the concert.

Those who do not follow the situation in the Occupied Territories/Palestine have little idea what evil, yes evil, is being perpetrated on the native Arab and Christian population there. I don't use this term lightly, but it is nothing short of ethnic cleansing of the indigenous peoples to make room for Zionist expansion, Eretz Yisrael, into land the UN never approved. It was spoken of by the founders of Zionism long before 1948 and every major leader of the Jewish State since 1948 has renewed the pledge to rid the area of its native population, through violence if necessary.

Apparently the world largely turns its eyes away from this evil.

How ironic that on a major anniversary of the genocide in Rwanda, while the world press is lavishing hand-wringing coverage of what could-have, should-have been done, under our eyes a similar genocide is taking place largely ignored. Fortunately, a still small voice is kindled in some, who then bravely speak out about the daily Israeli atrocities in Gaza.

If it takes mildly strident Christmas carols to raise the consciousness of even a handful to the sufferings of their fellow Christians and Arabs in Palestine, then PRAISES to those who put the concert together and those who hosted it. The shrill protests of the predictable be damned! Shanda on them!

The actions of St James Piccadilly make me proud to have been raised Anglican.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

How can Palestinians be demonised, if the Palestinian Minister of Tourism is working together with the Israeli Minister of Tourism on a number of projects and the election of the present - Palestinian - Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem was welcomed with great by all and sundry, including the Israeli authorities?

[Kate]

"What authority allows the state of Israel to attack, assassinate, blockade, besiege and constrain within walls the Palestinian population?"

Silly question even if the allegations were accurate. What authority allowed Palestinians to attack, assassinate, besiege and terrorise Israel for 60 years?

All sovereign states have the 'authority' to act in self-defence. Israel is a sovereign state.

The Palestinians and their leaders refuse to accept that fact. They have used aid for arms while their people starve; they destroyed the infrastructure left in Gaza which would have provided employment and boosted an economy. They have used duplicitous propaganda to mesmerise the 'useful idiots' of the western media. 'We are all Hamas/Hizbullah now' Etc. On what authority?

You make no mention of the (golly! gosh!) WALL built jointly by Egypt and Israel to keep Palestinians in Gaza and out of Egypt. The Egyptian 'blockade' is presumably okay since Egypt is a sovereign state and at liberty to protect itself from insurgents?

Try asking a few Egyptian Copts (as I did last month) on what it's like trying to live in peace with Islamists; ask what, in their personal experience is the ultimate aim and objective of Hamas - the democratically elected government of the suffering 'Palestinians'.

Copts are not a cultural or ethnic minority but Egyptians whose ancestors embraced Christianity in the first century. Many were converted (by the sword) to Islam when the Arabs conquered Egypt in 7th Century, many converted under the burden of Jizya, the dhimmi (second class citizen) tax.

Those who converted were labelled mawali; still liable for Jizya, still excluded from government or army posts; still second-class.

Why, in the face of all historical and contemporary evidence on the plight of non-Muslims in an Islamic state, are there still people like you insisting on the same fate for Israel?

Ah but, of course, it wouldn't be like that for the Jews, no offers of dimmi status for them; Hamas and their Iranian masters are intent on the elimination of the Jews. Do google the Hamas Charter if you find that 'difficult'.

[KM]

I've spent time on the West Bank and I grew up with close links to apartheid South Africa.

Israel and pre-Mandela South Africa are remarkably similar in the way they manage internal politics, demonise an ethnic group and squawk with horror when they are called racist discriminatory or oppressive by outsiders.

How much time have you spent in the West Bank Ruth? Have you interviewed any of the Palestinians who have lost jobs livelihood home as a result of the Wall?

Or don't you need to go to condemn the ridiculous idea that some people might see our faith as stirring us to protest against injustice?

[Margaret]

" To those harping on about the security wall: the numbers of Israelis murdered by suicide bombers and other terrorist attacks had plummeted since it was built."

How tragically unfortunate that the Palestinians are unable to end persistent military incursions and missile attacks against them by Israel, which continue whether or not there is a "truce" or rocketry fire.

At least 33,034 Palestinians have been injured since 2000, the same is true of 8,341 Israelis.

Between 7.07 and 10.31.08, a fifteen month period,
648 Palestinians have been killed by IDF activity while 38 Israelis have been killed.

From 2000 through 10.31.08, fatalities arising from the occupation of Palestine totaled 4, 876 Palestinians and 1,062 Israeli.

What authority allows the state of Israel to attack, assassinate, blockade, besiege and constrain within walls the Palestinian population?

While appreciating the opportunity for dialogue provided by Dr. Lancaster, the offer clearly diverts attention from consideration of such questions as this, here and now, by the readership at large.

The purpose of the Bethlehem carols was to arouse the public's interest in the current situation in Gaza, where humanitarian aid is not being allowed to pass the Israeli blockade. Despite the personal comments denigrating individuals who organized the activity, dedicated time to participating with the community of church members and were willing to expose themselves to the hatred they knew would be directed against them by those who consider such questions 'unseemly' and potentially disruptive to continuation of unfettered Israeli military action, they achieved their purpose.

A last question remains for me: are the lyrics of Christmas carols and the venue of a political protest truly more important than the deaths of a captive people?

[Merseymike]

Still no justification for establishing a Jewish state when they clearly were not the majority occupants. However, the stance of the neighbouring states and for that matter, the Palestinian leadership, have done the Palestinians no favours either.

[Kate]

Christopher Johnston: "If the West Bank, "East Jerusalem" and the Gaza Strip have always been "Palestinian" land from time immemorial, why wasn't a "Palestinian" state created there in during the period from 1948 through 1967 when Jordan controlled the first two and Egypt controlled the third?"

Answer: the Arabs were offered and refused a Palestinian State because they would not agree to any of the land being allocated to Jews ergo, 1948 war.

Palestine was named as such by the Romans as they displaced the Jews of Judah and Samaria. It underwent conquest by a number of empires, and settlements, finally that of the Ottoman Turk. There have ALWAYS been Jews in the area, and there have always been returners - particularly during pogroms in Europe (including England) and Russia.

Many who now call themselves 'Palestinian' settled with the Ottoman invasion but the Jews were there already; many more came from Egypt e.g. Arafat, Syria et al, to find work when the Zionists were transforming the barren land on which the British allowed them to purchase under the Mandate.

The British renewed the term Palestine. The majority of Arabs were nomadic. The Hashemite Arab dynasty was given Jordan, i.e. 70% of the British Mandate in 1946.

In 1950, Jordan annexed Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) which had been under its control since the armistice following the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Jordan renamed the territory the West Bank.

Jordan signed a military pact with Egypt in May 1967, and in June 1967 waged the Six Day War against Israel along with Syria, Egypt and Iraq. During the war, Jordan lost the West Bank and east Jerusalem to Israel. In 1988, Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank but retained an administrative role pending a final settlement, and its 1994 treaty with Israel allowed for a continuing Jordanian role in Muslim and Christian holy places in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel.

Despite this, in 1973, Jordan along with allied Arab League forces attacked Israel in the Yom Kippur War. An Israeli-Jordanian peace treaty was concluded on 26 October 1994. Jordan, holding most of the land of the British Mandate has no quarrel with Israel.

Egypt has no quarrel with Israel. In 1973, Egypt, and Syria, launched the October War, against Israeli forces occupying the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights - territory captured by Israel 6 years earlier (1967 war). The October War was not a military success but it allowed Sadat to regain the Sinai in return with peace with Israel.

Sadat's historic visit to Israel in 1977, led to the 1979 peace treaty in exchange for the complete Israeli withdrawal from Sinai. There is, of course, the media ignored Rafah Border Crossing: A WALL would you believe! an international border between Egyptian and Palestinian-controlled Rafah. "It was built by the Israeli and Egyptian governments after the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty" and is now under the control of the European Union Border Assistance Mission Rafah (EUBAM).

In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home". By that stage Jews were 33% of the population of the British Mandate area.

The state of Israel comprises approximately 6% of the area administered under the British Mandate. The other 94% is in Arab hands.

The argument that Jews have no 'rights' to 6% of the area they have continuously occupied for 3,000 years is risible BUT, at the same time, useful idiots who have fallen for Arafat's bag of tricks i.e. the renaming of Arabs (like himself) from Egypt, Syria, Jordan et al, as Palestinian, would exterminate or exile all Israeli Jews in favour of yet another feudal Muslim state.

Hope this helps.

[iconoclast]

Re. the gentleman (?) who saw Israel's demise as a good thing. How would he carry this out: gas, bullet, nuclear or biological weapons? Or would he be willing to accept the 5.7m Israelis as landed asylum seekers en bloc on British shores? Do pray tell us?

[Merseymike]

As I already said, Christopher, other arrangements will need to be made for the Jews which do not threaten world peace in the way that Israel does.

People can exist without states. The Palestinians have been in that part of the world far longer than the Israeli settlers, but, frankly, that is entirely irrelevant to my view. I am simply concerned with finding a solution which will lead to a cessation of conflict and I think that will not happen whilst Israel remains in situ.

I think the creation of the modern state of Israel was an error - done for the best possible reasons, but its consequences have been severe.

[Mike]

To those harping on about the security wall: the numbers of Israelis murdered by suicide bombers and other terrorist attacks had plummeted since it was built. Simple as that. Given the choice between a wall and hundreds of deaths I know what most people would prefer. If people in the West have some irrational, emotional object to the wall then they should try to dissuade the Palestinians from committing mass murder.

[Christopher Johnson]

Casually tossing around loaded terms like "apartheid" is not criticism, Merseymike. It is complete and total indifference to the lives of Jews and to Jews alone. Why else pretend to be concerned about a fictional people like the "Palestinians?"

"Fictional?" I've asked this before and have never ever gotten a satisfactory response from anyone so I'll try it here. If the West Bank, "East Jerusalem" and the Gaza Strip have always been "Palestinian" land from time immemorial, why wasn't a "Palestinian" state created there in during the period from 1948 through 1967 when Jordan controlled the first two and Egypt controlled the third?

[Jonathan]

"rg writes: I think if something is experienced by pro-Israelis as anti-Zionist, which this even certainly was, then it is fair comment for me to suggest it might be."

You did not "suggest it might be anti-Zionist", you labelled it "abhorently anti-Zionist propaganda" with out backing this statement with any substantial information.

(rg writes: the blog contains the information necessary to back up the statement.)

[ProudZionist]

Reproduced with permssion:

Dear Rev. Hedley,

On Sunday evening, I attended the service of Advent carols in Durham Cathedral, as I do (with my wife) almost every year. It is always
worthwhile, given the splendour of the cathedral itself, its vast pillars, its high clerestory, and its distant ceiling, the procession of the choir
from darkness to light along the nave, and the quality of the singing. It is only surpassed, for me, by the same service in my old college, King¹s,
Cambridge.

As you may know, Durham Cathedral has for some time now been a UNESCO World Heritage Site. It is one of the most magnificent buildings in Europe, and I never see it without marvelling at the designers and builders who brought it into existence without modern equipment. I had been thinking about the pro-Palestinian *carol¹ service held in your church, and that led me to think of Israel and one of the latest additions to the UNESCO World Heritage Sites list: the Baha¹i shrine and gardens in Haifa (together with another shrine and gardens outside the city of Akko). I have been there several times in the past, and my academic interest in the Baha¹is has prompted me to keep abreast of developments there.

The Baha¹i buildings and gardens on the slopes of Mount Carmel are one of the loveliest places on the shores of the Mediterranean, and many
thousands of visitors pass through them every year. Haifa is proud of them, and Israel as a whole counts them among the important religious sites in a country filled with them.

Why does this matter? If you care to travel to Iran (another country I used to know well), you should ask about the Baha¹i shrines there. After all, Iran is the country where the Baha¹i religion began, and Baha¹is make up the largest religious minority there. But if you ask (at genuine risk of
being arrested) about the country¹s Baha¹i shrines, the answer will be that there are none. It will be a correct answer, for every Baha¹i holy site that existed in Iran has been demolished. The Baha¹is themselves have suffered every manner of persecution since the revolution in 1979. They are, as you possibly know, a peace-loving people who abstain from politics. Think very carefully about this: the clerical regime in Iran that persecutes its own people out of pure religious animus, is the same regime that backs Hamas and Hezbollah, two terrorist groups that threaten to destroy Israel and to massacre the Jews that live there. Did you sing carols to mock Iran? To condemn Iran for its numerous human rights abuses, for its hanging and stoning of innocent women for the merest peccadilloes? Of course not. Your church chose to celebrate that very wish to destroy a democratic country for the sin of defending itself against those who would kill it.

In Israel, the Baha¹is are free to worship, to build, to convey their message of universal peace. Anywhere else in the Middle East (including Gaza and the West Bank) they can never live their religious lives in the open, for there are often severe penalties just for being a Baha¹i. In Israel, all religious buildings come under a guarantee of protection from the state. No Christian churches are demolished. No mosques, not even the two on top of the Temple Mount, are bulldozed. The followers of all faiths are free to pray wherever they choose. Yet your church chose to proclaim solidarity with a people who have driven Christians from their towns, destroyed synagogues and churches, and perpetuate the myths of anti-Semitism in their schools, on their radio and television, in their mosque sermons, and in their political speeches. I speak of an anti-Semitism as raw and evil as anything perpetrated by the Nazis. Why would you celebrate such evil (for that, in effect, is what you have done, simply by turning a blind eye to it)?

You are a churchman, and I expect better from you. Israel is a genuine democracy that shows great commitment to human rights. Religious minorities, women, gay men and women all co-exist in Israel, and the state protects their rights. There is no other country in the Middle East that comes anywhere close to this in theory or in fact. In Iran, thousands of people are hanged every year, more often than not for actions we would not even regard as crimes. Israel does not use capital punishment, not even for convicted terrorists. If you are a man of principle and of progressive ideas, can you not see that it is not Israel that deserves your condemnation, but those surrounding countries that kill and torture, as
often as not in the name of God?

I know you have come in for much criticism for mounting this service, but I cannot feel any will to exonerate you. I think you sided with evil, with a system that unleashes suicide bombers and rockets on innocent civilians, whose people hand out candy in the streets when terrorists blow
themselves up among children, whose mothers and fathers danced when Samir Kuntar, the murderer of a father and his two children was released from prison, whose children sing of the glory of becoming martyrs. Nothing can excuse any of this, least of all the desire of the Israeli people to live secure within their own boundaries. It is the disgrace of our age. It will be the shame of centuries. Would Christ have held the hand of the suicide bomber or spurned the dying Israeli child? Would he have joined in the chants of *Kill the Jews¹ and spat in the faces of Jews who had come from Auschwitz only to find their new neighbours predicting another massacre? In times like these, we all have to choose. I made my choice long ago. At the very least, I ask you to make a choice between a black and terrible bitterness and a balanced view of the situation in the Middle East.

Thank you for reading this.

Best wishes,
Dr. Denis MacEoin

[ProudZionist]

J

On the rise in antisemitsm in the UK: As well as the PCAA Report Ket recommends, this is an eye-opener.

http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/Antisemitic%20Discourse%20Report%202007_web.pdf

Every Jewish community building (synagogues, schools, community sites) in the UK now has round-the-clock security.

[ProudZionist]

Nick Ferrari discussed the event on LBC 97.3 this morning. He was scathing as were callers. The segment may be posted by LBC on

http://lbc.audioagain.com/index.php?sid=1&player=showchannel&channel_id=101

[j]

Dr Lancaster, thank you for the invitation and I wish I had the free time to accept it.

[Will]

Some people attack Israel out of pure hatred, and that is to be condemned. Some of us because we see that the way Israel too often acts is against its deepest beliefs. I was in Israel last year and took this picture of the wall by Bethlehem. http://www.flickr.com/photos/9990965@N07/?deleted=3078947411
I am deeply concerned about this sort of trying to present a prison wall and relating it to peace. Ruth, I know that you are deeply passionate about Israel but we need to be critical friends and not just accepting of the propaganda.

(rg writes: thank you for this and yes I agree. I just think events such as this represent a failure to understand or recognise what Israel is herself trying to do to help the Palestinians. I will put that picture in the post.)

[j]

Thank you Kate, I will take a look.

[cp36]

My problem is not the Jew but I am strongly against anyone modifying the hymns or the carols for any reason. It means they have no respect for the original hymn or carol writers and the kind of language they used to describe what they believed in. Leaves a very poor taste and I would certainly get up and walk out if I find carols like the above sung in any church service.

[irenelancaster]

In response to J,this blog is not perhaps the right forum to hold a seminar on the history of the area under discussion, Jewish history and Palestinian history. However, J, as I said in my previous posting, you and others are welcome to the Interfaith Dialogue Day which will be held at Manchester University on Thursday June 11th, 2009, and which will be a better forum to discuss the question of what interfaith dialogue is all about.

[Merseymike]

What bleating nonsense!

Is telling the truth about the unacceptable behaviour of Israel 'anti-semitic'?

Or is this country somehow beyond criticism - clearly in some Zionist quarters.

Israel will be judged by its actions. I used to be sympathetic for their cause, but I think that world peace would be best served by its demise. Is this a view one is not allowed to expressed without having nonsense like 'anti-semitic' thrown around? The fact is that Israel and its presence leads to hostility owing to its geographical situation and its aggression, which is met by aggression by nations around it. World peace cannot be sacrificed for the Zionist dream - israel will have to be recreated elsewhere. The USA would be the most sensible option. Plenty of space, few hostile neighbours.

[Babs Barron]

MIKE POWER:

RE Israel/Jewish hatred and distinguishing between the two.

I should not have to explain to a (presumably) intelligent person the difference between Israel- and Jew-hatred and how Islamists and Leftists all too easily conflate the two.

Do some reading and research. Find out how Jew-hatred has manifested itself throughout the ages, the phraseology and concepts it uses, and then compare it with the terminology of the accusations levelled against Israel by Islamists and their fellow travellers, particularly on the loony left.

You may well find it highly educational. Hope this helps.

[andrew holden]

Personally I think this Carol Concert (surely it would be a travesty to call it a SERVICE?)should not have taken place and wiser counsel should have prevailed. As a party politically motivated event it should have been held somewhere other than a church - if at all.

That said I'm against all forms of nationalism (partly because they DO have a tendency to grow racist fringes) and think its time we grew out of such restrictive loyalties. No nation state, and no political movement, can somehow be above criticism - but the old adage "feel free to criticise if you are here to help" seems appropriate in this case - just bashing the State of Israel in this one sided manner, without grasping something of the realities of the security situation in the region, does not help.

[Kate]

J - I grew up in 1960s Northern Ireland (UK). We were taught what anti-Semitism meant. In the 50s, in state/Protestant primary schools - protestant due to RC policy on segregated education - we were shown (in P7) old newsreels of the liberation of the camps. We had Nazi hatred of Jews explained, simply, but in some detail.

This continued at grammar school - the history curriculum included, WWII, the founding of the state of Israel, 1948, 1967 wars, Arab attacks on Israel and the divisions of the Mandate.

Don't know what was going on in England and Wales (!) but it is astonishing, today, that you have not read the worrying (cross party) government report on the increase in anti-Semitism in England.
www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm73/7381/7381.pdf
AND: http://www.thepcaa.org/

For a quick historical perspective, and some idea of the gross imbalance in Western opinion and reporting when it comes to Jews (Israelis) and Arab Muslims (Jordan, Syria et al), I suggest you take a look at
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tbznv15JQ5M

[Jonathan]

Anti-semitism is abhorent. You've not (yet?) made a convincing case that this event is "abhorent anti-Zionist propaganda".

As an English christian brought up with in a christian zionist tradition the verses you quote don't read to me as being anti-semitic, anti-zionist or even strictly anti-Israeli - more like anti-aspects-of-Israel's-self-defence-policies.

That being said, the carols' perspective is one sided; given that they're attempting to rectify a perceived reporting imbalance, that's not surprising.

Without evidence to the contrary, I assume that the organizers are equally appalled by Israeli and Palestinian violence and oppression.

I don't have a problem with parodies of Christmas Carols trying to make a humanitarian point - censorship is usually a bad thing.

(rg writes: I think if something is experienced by pro-Israelis as anti-Zionist, which this even certainly was, then it is fair comment for me to suggest it might be.)

[Stanley Walinets]

Ruth Gledhill - Times Online - WBLGPreviewing your Comment
I'm a Jew
Dear Ms Gledhill,
please advise me -- I haven't posted on this blog before. I just wrote a contribution, ok'd it on your Preview screen, then clicked on 'Post', but it hasn't appeared: instead, I see my name is still on the Post panel but my message has been replaced by your 'Previewing your comment' entry above.
Is this the normal procedure? If so, can you tell me if and when my contribution will appear?
Many thanks,
Stanley walinets

(rg writes: I don't know why that is. Normally there is a delay between posting and publication because this is a moderated blog, sometimes unfortunately the delay can be for many hours if I am away from a computer because Blackberrys and Typepad seem to be incompatible. I have just republished your first comment in the hope that helps.)

[Stanley Walinets]

I'm a Jew. Why is it that so many of my brethren cannot bear to see Israeli policies and practices criticised?
If I criticise what's being done by some Israeli Jews (and not every Israeli Jew -- note for example the growing numbers of young men there who are going to prison for refusing to join the IDF because they cannot accept the inhuman treatment they'd be ordered to carry out against Palestinians)-- if I criticise Israel's inhuman practices, I'm knee-jerk condemned for being 'anti-semitic' !!
For God's sake -- I'm being PRO-SEMITIC, if I point out the evil that's being perpetrated in our name!
Can Jews do no wrong, just because we're Jews? Nonsense. In pre-War Nazi Germany, any German daring to criticise his Government's behaviour (eg towards Jews) would be condemned as 'Anti-Fatherland' and probably be sent to the Camps: until eventually the evils their rulers committed caused ALL THE WORLD to hate Germany. That's history, thank God. But my dear fellow Jews, don't let us go on behaving towards Palestinians in such ways that eventually, all the world will -- with good cause -- hate US. Just think -- if we let that happen, Hitler will turn in his grave with glee!
As to the re-wording of those carols -- I beg you all, read them again. For the most part, they speak nothing but the truth. St James' Church in London which allowed this performance was a shining example of what Christianity should be about. Jesus would have commended it's Vicar.

[J Pearce]

The re-written lyrics are a joke! They read as if done by some 6th form numpty. And they barely adhere to the cadence and rhythm of the original carol scores.

It strikes me as yet another clod-hopping anti-Israel protest organised by a bunch of students.

By the way Ruth, you have nothing to fear from threats of libel - you have a resident libel expert on this very blog, who is no doubt eager to advise you on even the smallest details of what you may or may not want to write. After all, he does it to the rest of us...

[ami]

Oh and the gentleman from the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who made antisemtic remarks at the demo, also doesn't like Protestants very much either, judging from one snide remark: He gestured to the Christian who had come all the way from Wales to support the demo, who was carrying his own placard about rewriting Carols. Of course, sneered the SPSC man, the Protestants rewrote the whole bible. Another comment he made challenging me whether I had condemned other wrongs such as British occupation of Northern Ireland, made me wonder how much his presence at the service was contributing to ecumenical goodwill, and whether St James is happy that he was the main greeter at the gate to people coming in.

[ami]

Mordechai Ben Emet; Thank you for the link to the blog exposing the Amos trust- it is a revelation. If you drill down into the links there, my description of the self regarding antics of Fink et al at St James being a conduit to more sinister trends, is amply confirmed.
The acknowledged use by Justpeace of the lyrics of Garth Hewitt written in 2002 about Bethlehem, explain why the description of conditions there is so outdated, and says little about how in touch Justpeace is with conditions on the ground. Even more interesting are the alleged links in that blog between Garth Hewitt and Ibrahim Hewitt of Interpal, who among other issues, wants to abolish Holocaust Memorial Day. The Rev Sizer of Amos trust has some viciously supersessionary statements about Jews on record there too, the kind of statements which were used as justification during 2000 years of Christian persecution of Jews, from which most Christians today distance themselves.

So irrespective of their intentions, Justpeace must take responsibility for this Pandora's box; if they didn't know the links, they must be regarded as alerted to them now.
http://seismicshock.blogspot.com/2008/11/amos-trust-and-new-theological.html

[j]

Ruth has been kind enough to send me the full text and there are some lyrics that are more offensive than these shown here, using the language of apartheid and war crimes. But I would agree that to someone who grew up in the 1960s, they are not in themselves as powerful as all that- nothing when compared with the old protest songs about Vietnam or nuclear energy, such as those sung by Joan Baez.
I think we need to separate three issues.
The first would be to establish what form of anti-war protest is legitimate and not anti-Semitic. I’d be interested in Dr Lancaster’s views on this. I am sure that nobody is saying that any expression of worries about the conduct of the conflict, or of Zionism, is in itself anti-Semitic. What makes it difficult to protest appropriately about this conflict, if you want to, is precisely this aspect of it being a religiously inspired vision (of Zionism) on one side and a more standard secular vision (of territory and nation) on the Palestinian side.
The second would be to establish what makes this especially offensive. Using the format of a carol service has shock value of course. I’m interested to see Dr Lancaster’s concern that this carol service will create a genuine danger to the safety of Jewish people in London. I would be surprised if it had such an effect, but am open to correction. I do think that Londoners see more anti-Islamic material almost every day and some of it is more blatant than this.
The third thing would be the question of provocation- the “lightning rod” issue. Stirring up racial or religious hatred is unacceptable. But I would have to say to Ruth that I did think, when considering her first rule for the conduct of blogging (only do something if you have through it through), that she might in future rethink some of the titles she chooses. “Obama and the gay bishop: three private meetings”- is that not a “lightning rod” for homophobes? especially as the meetings themselves were not on the theme of gay rights.
I’ll be honest: I am also keen to show that I am a friend to the Jewish people, as well as to my Muslim brothers and sisters. But not being in London myself, I do not see this as quite so serious as you do. Perhaps that is my ignorance: if so, please do tell me what I am missing.

[ProudZionist]

"National Anarchist"

You seem to have a nasty case of antisemitism - I suggest you see a shrink

[Bonus Miles]

At the same time as causing deep offence the organisers of this event have - presumably unwittingly - touched on the tragic irony of Palestine being a place of occupation and cruelty just as it was at the time Jesus was born. But by turning the sacred into the profance the organisers have alienated many people who might otherwise sympathise with the issues they were aiming to publicise.

[Dr. Irene Lancaster FRSA]

Margaret and others are welcome to attend the Open Day on Interfaith Dialogue that I have been invited to lead at Manchester University in June next year. We hope to be discussing issues such as those aired in Ruth's blog, among others and all will be welcome.

When I know the exact date I will let you know

[Jeremiah]

The real cause of offence here is the fact that someone has taken cherished hymns and subverted their meaning to suggest that Our Lord Jesus Christ hated the Jews.This displays a profoubd ignorance of the Bible. The new Testament records that Christ once reproved his disciples for speaking against the Jews saying beware for they may see God before you do.

[ProudZionist]

http://st-james-piccadilly.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=36

See the Forum of St James' Piccadilly - there are a number of critical comments there

[jonathan L]

Antisemitism and religious hatred is a factor which does much to complicate the dispute and prevent a solution. Those who want to promote peace should encourage mutual understanding rather then hate.

[National Anarchist]

Don't kid yourself, as the statistics prove the real "lightning rod for anti-Semitism" is the actions of Jewish people themselves rather than a couple reworded Christmas carols.

[Margaret]

Ruth: If you wish to cross check the fatality statistics, they are given for 2000-7/2007 in a special report from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at this site: http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument

The same sources are used. I wasn't aware that new tallies were available. (For some months I stopped following the news when the deaths started to increase rapidly this spring.)

Reviewing the totals, I see that 648 Palestinians died in the 15 months from 7/07-10/08; during that time 38 Israelis died.

196 Palestinian children and 8 Israeli children died during the year from 7/07-7/08

Relating to propaganda: record keeping is becoming more detailed, undoubtedly in an effort to establish whether deaths can be attributed to 'terrorist' activity by youngsters; the details are available here: http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

[Margaret]

Ruth: If you wish to cross check the fatality statistics, they are given for 2000-7/2007 in a special report from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) at this site: http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument

The same sources are used. I wasn't aware that new tallies were available. (For some months I stopped following the news when the deaths started to increase rapidly this spring.)

Reviewing the totals, I see that 648 Palestinians died in the 15 months from 7/07-10/08; during that time 38 Israelis died.

196 Palestinian children and 8 Israeli children died during the year from 7/07-7/08

Relating to propaganda: record keeping is becoming more detailed, undoubtedly in an effort to establish whether deaths can be attributed to 'terrorist' activity by youngsters; the details are available here: http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

[Mordechai Ben Emet]

For an expose on the anti-Zionist carols, which seem to have been started by Garth Hewitt of Amos Trust, the antisemitic 'walled nativity' of Amos Trust, and antisemitic theology at Christmas, please see this blog post:

Amos Trust and the New Theological Antisemitism

Comments are welcome.

[Martha Hoeber]

Britain has always been silently anti-Jewish, and pro-Arab. And sometimes not so silently. Only a few very brave and far-seeing souls have been brave enough in the past 200 years to try to overcome the pervasive anti-Jewish feeling which seems to be a holdover from medieval times. Just read Victorian novels and note the depiction of Jews by, for example, Dickens, Trollope, et al. Britons seem to think that Jesus Christ was an English gentleman instead of a first century Jew who lived and died a Jew, and who Christians, if they are all all Biblically literate, believe will return as a Jew.