Women bishops: what's the answer?

Online Surveys & Market Research

The Church of England  has published the latest musings from its bishops on the grindingly slow process towards women bishops. Read my news story, the splash in the printed version of the paper on 30 December, plus a historic timeline for which I give huge thanks to Christina Rees in giving me dates and other facts. Expect the first woman to be consecrated some time around 2012. She is likely to be drawn from the 'Darc' group of women priests - deans, archdeacons and residentiary canons, an informal gathering of about 15 senior women priests in the Church of England that meets several times a year.

The term 'complementary bishop' is almost as unwieldy as the 'provincial episcopal visitor' that led to the 'flying bishop' nomenclature beloved of journalists but not in the Church. So far we've failed to think of something better than complementary however, so I'm asking all of you to help.

Jonathan Petre, veteran religion corr who I think it was that came up with flying bishops, texts me a suggestion replete with his customary brilliance: 'Helicopter bishops'. Later this evening, he comes up with another: 'Swinging bishops.'

The real problems will come with this legislation with the recognition that a code of practice is not binding, the flaw spotted by traditionalists long ago. This means, as the code concedes, that anything which is done under or not under it but which can be contested under it, could be subject to judicial review. Can the church afford this potential proliferation of court cases?

The report explicitly recognises that opposition to women bishops does not affect a person's standing as a loyal Anglican. The aim is to "leave generous space for those who in conscience cannot receive this development."

Comments

[Tom Montgomery]

Dear Fr Smith,

I'm bewildered by your point of view with regards to what an enclave is. The Church of England is only a small church made up of two provinces. Both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches are so much bigger in size.

I myself have made the journey to Rome. It was with a lot of soul searching and heartache that I did it. To do it I had to be released from the life vows that I had made as an Anglican Franciscan Friar. So those who stay are trying to be faithful to where they believe God is calling them.

I am though very happy in my new church. The reason being - I came to Rome not because of what I didn't like in the CofE, but because of what the See of Peter offered. Unless you can do that then you should stay where you are.

[Father Ron Smith]

Fr. Ed Tomlinson,

Perhaps the dissidents (those against the idea of women priests and bishops) should do what you suggest and offer themselves to the ecclesiological enclave that is right and proper for them - either the Orthodox or the Church of Rome.

No amount of casuistical theory can lodge anti-women-clergy zealots together with those who espouse the acceptance of women and men in the Sacred Ministry of the Anglican Church. So why vaccilate?

It would not matter what sort of special arrangements were made. It seems that F.i.F. will only be satisfied with their own special provision. In such a situation, one either abides by the Synodical decisions of the C.of E. or one seeks other, more congenial and 'sheltered' accommodation.

[Mark Wharton]

It seems to me that the problem we have is this; supporters of women Bishops want to be sure that opponents believe that women can indeed become bishops, and when a woman is appointed, that no one can say that she is not a Bishop. However one cannot force the conscience of another, so it would seem to me we should allow opponents to have their own dioceses where gathered around a male Bishop they can flourish and prosper, allowing the Woman Bishop to be Bishop in her Diocese without having to bother about those who cannot agree that she is a Bishop. This would mean there would be no holes in her diocese because opponents would not be in her diocese. Whereas with a Code of Practice, there would be holes, and many of them, because there would be people 1) unable to believe that she is a Bishop 2)unable to receive her sacramental ministry and 3) unable to engage in the wider life of the diocese. Let’s be brave and try this, in the end only those things of God will flourish.

[David Cohen]

I can only conclude that the answer here is to.....abolish the Synod!

Who will join me in a new campaign to rid the Church of England of this albatross round its neck?

[iain rae]

Whatever next ,a blonde bombshell Pope. When will women realize religions are man made, and women's place is to be meek and subservient to their male masters.

[j]

There's rather a lot of "good lady" going on here, I feel as if I have stumbled onto an entire cache of Captain Mainwarings.

Men can cope with all that nasty authority but it's different for girls. Man Does, Woman Is (Robert Graves).

Dear little things, we cant have lovely woman worried about what shade eye-shadow to wear with that tricky episcopal purple, now can we?

I suggest "boy-bishops".

[J Pearce]

Theo,

Mockery - or taking the p*ss - is an essential component of freedom of speech. Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it isn't funny to someone else.

And just because I take the p*ss out of somebody - or a group of people - that doesn't imply I don't have respect for that person or group. Which is a common misunderstanding amongst those who consider themselves too precious for such treatment.

And personally, I think Bernard Manning was, for the most part, a tosser. But he did occasionally crack some funny jokes. He wouldn't have been on the circuit for as long as he was, if he hadn't.

[Andrew, Venezuela]

The "magnitude of this mess" doesn't seem to have been all that much appreciated in general terms. As and when the good ladies have become settled in to their new appointments, it will surely only be a matter of time before they start to worm their way even higher through the clerical ranks, perhaps even seeking archepiscopal titles. Although I don't wish to put any further proverbial cats among the proverbial pigeons, there being enough of these as things stand, I would like to add a post-script to my tongue-in-cheek post of 30 December 2008, and propose that possible future archepiscopal (or similar) positions held by the ladies could entitle them to the use of two saltire crosses before their names, as "XX". In addition to pandering to their individual egos, such a step would help us all to recognise an administrative promotion of this type for what it REALLY is, i.e. a "double cross" right from the word "go" !.

[Christopher]

"And that’s yer basic problem with fantastical metaphors. Great for exciting the imagination; not so good at describing mundane reality."

Too right JP. Has anyone seen the Corpus clock in Cambridge built by Dr Taylor for his old college Corpus Christi? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqGtvTA36k

It is amazing and quite wonderful. Of course it was only a matter of time before somebody had to see the image of the Chronophage "eating time" as a mark of the last days. It had to happen! I came across this deranged apocalyptic analysis of the meaning of the Corpus Clock - apparently it is a UFO among other things - all bad though!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=m9G-TYJjsJ8

[j]

most interesting. The problem with the argument that advancement is perilous and a good woman should not seek it, is that it applies equally to men.

So either there should be no bisphops at all, or we should be grateful to women for relieving men of this burden.
On acting a part, it is quite recent to see black actors in BBC Dickens and other trad roles. When you know its symbolic (or drama) then there is no issue having a slightly different symbol.

I cant say I have any sympathy with the Christ as placenta thing, apart from anything else, it relies on you speaking English- which of course, Christ did not. Anyone know the Aramaic for placenta?

[andrew holden]

"Why the hurry? Why the fuss? If a good lady has felt the call to be a priest, why does she want to be a bishop as well?"

I agree with the point about those who *seek* advancement and wish it was followed more often as a sign of unsuitableness. Neverthless there are women priests who the Church wishes to consecrate to the episcopate because they would make good bishops.

[Theo Dexter]

JP

Surely humour is supposed to be funny?

One day I hope that mocking the old will become as unacceptable as the “humour” attributed to Bernard Manning.

[Jamie MacNab]

Sometimes the right thing to do is nothing.

Why the hurry? Why the fuss? If a good lady has felt the call to be a priest, why does she want to be a bishop as well? I learned long ago to beware those who seek advancement, and to beware especially those who would damage the organisation in order to get it.

What does history tell us about ambitious priests?

[Chris Gillibrand]

If for the sake of argument one imagines for les than one second these bishops have valid orders, their jurisdiction would either be quasi-ordinary or delegated in canon law. So how about qob?

That said but now more seriously, this proposal allows the remaining Anglo-Catholics to say a dignified goodbye to a Church that has changed beyond recognition. It has indeed been a Glorious Battle but there is no need any longer to be bogged down in the trenches of General Synod. There are more important battles to fight and win elsewhere.

[Colin Wrigley]

I shall accept a woman as a priest if the modernisers will accept that the Virgin Mary can be equally well played by a boy or a girl in a Nativity Play. Being a priest is not a career: it is more like to acting a part. A woman just cannot act the role of Christ at the altar without all sorts of irrelevant ideas getting in the way. So far we laypeople have been able to avoid the badly cast female role-players because of the various provisions made but once the women get to play bishop the whole drama will become a farce. Whatever it will become it will not have any connection with historic Christianity, to the nation's loss. We will be faced with more of the spiritual sounding but unorthodox ramblings about placentas and feminine Holy Spirit such as from Sue Holmes in your first post above. In a free society they should be able to go off and start their own church but not try to take over the C of E by subverting it from within.

[Merseymike]

Why can't those who oppose the changes simply join the Roman Catholics?

The CofE have agreed to have women bishops and those who do not agree really need to decide whether they wish to stay or not. They can't have it both ways

[Trevor of Hulton.]

Having spotted Ruth's comment about where the first female bishops will likely be drawn from and read the contributions from her and all the rest I have decided to call it a draw after 40plus years. I'll just remain with Jesus and try to love my neighbour(s),even though they weary me with their bigotry, posturing, scheming and downright badness,my daughter will give me communion, thankfully she will never be made a Bishop, she's too good at what she does

[andrew holden]

I've no time for further accommodation that fudges the issue and leaves any suggestion that women priests are not priests and women bishops unaceptable. It's simply time that as a church we started to obey the law of the land. Those who have a 'conscience' about this should exercise it and do the only right thing.

[J Pearce]

"And when Jesus chose bread and wine at the Last Supper as symbols to remember him by, he chose female imagery."

Sorry, I have a problem with this. It’s a rather tortuous metaphor to extend the mythical contents of the last supper to a biological function. It appears a rather feminist take on the myth of Christ, which, being entirely unsexist, is about as enlightening as all the other interpretations of mythic symbols currently doing the rounds.

The placenta is a biological function of a child bearing female. Its not even unique to the human species, which calls into question exactly how far Jesus "spriritual cleansing" is supposed to extend (does it apply to our bovine friends, for example? Would that not make them objects of worship then? Have the Hindu's got it right all along???).

And the name "placenta" is entirely down to chance naming. Obviously, some Greek observer decided that the post-birth placenta looked like a "flat cake" (its true translation). Did JC actually eat unleavened bread at the last Supper? Who knows? And does it even look like bread whilst still in the womb? Probably not.

And that’s yer basic problem with fantastical metaphors. Great for exciting the imagination; not so good at describing mundane reality.

But then, we are talking about religion here, which is entirely predicated on the fantastic and metaphorical...

[J Pearce]

"Ageism?"

Sardonic humour?

Deary me Theo, you walked into that one.

[Sue Holmes]

Jesus targeted his message of the submissive, suffering, obedient servant at those who needed it most. Men. Because they were special, or because they had special needs? For what did women need to learn about serving or suffering, aout obedience or submission? Women did not need that message because they were already like him. Or was it that Jesus was like a woman in a man's world, without power, money or possessions? Just like a woman, he showed his feelings, cared for children and had compassion. He showed his 'feminine side'. For women, Jesus had a different message. Learn from men, don't wait on them. For Jesus was not just the scarificial lamb. He roared too, like a revolutionary lion. 'Stop caring so much for others', he told women on the way to the cross, 'think of yourselves'. Be more like men, be independent, stand alone. His message to a woman after his death rejected by envious men - until now.
And when Jesus chose bread and wine at the Last Supper as symbols to remember him by, he chose female imagery. 'Placenta' means unleavened bread, and it is through the placenta's blood that a mother cleanses her unborn baby and nourishes him with her body. In the same way, Jesus promised to cleanse us with his blood and nourish us with his body. The placenta comes from the father, through his genes, and like Jesus, the placenta too has to die so that we may live. And placenta blood always flows, it never clots. What a mother does physically, Jesus does spiritually.
Jesus died so that the feminine Holy Spirit could come. Is the Church, as Christ's body, ready to do the same?

[j]

I suggest they be known as "men".

[peter wood]

Purely as a personal response...I have been trying to point out for years that the best and brightest of the Catholic theologians in the period of the Second Vatican Council - notably Karl Rahner - said in terms that they could see no problem with the ordination of women. Admiitedly within the Roman system they were referring primarily to the diaconate but the principle was conceded. Now, decades later, we have a cowardly and muddled proposal from the C of E which "leaves generous space for those who in conscience cannot receive this development" (sic). Had the measure failed to leave "generous space" etc we Anglicans would have had the notable pleasure of consulting our own consciences in our own space rather than have it provided for us like a public park by a Synod about which David Cohen has surely said the last word.

[Austin Scott]

Such charming people who support women bishops. Surely they will also support and fund a commando unit of biker-chick clergy who can go and rough up those who object to females impersonating priests -- and then hand them over to the secular branch for burning. Makes more sense than a fatuous "code of conduct."

[Colin Wrigley]

It does not matter what the complementary bishops are to be called because this scheme is dead in the water: it will satisfy neither the orthodox nor the modernisers. Not a single orthodox bishop would agree to serve as a complementary under this scheme so it just will not work.

[Theo Dexter]

“May they rot in their hell. Atheism is the only acceptable answer to this nonsense.”

Have you thought this through?

[Theo Dexter]

“Why are these senile old dotards allowed out into the community anyway? What possible benefit do they give to society? Don't they have care homes to live in?!”

Ageism?

[peterNW1]

Since the creation of these "flying bishops" will be due to a fudge, we should perhaps call them "Candymen."

[Peter Kirk]

Why can't the C of E make its own rules, by Act of Synod, like every other non-government organisation without expecting Parliament to waste its time passing Acts of Parliament about them? I trust that Parliament would refuse to pass anything more than a minimal enabling measure. In fact any new rules will be legally binding as they can be challenged by judicial review. But if the church authorities abide by them and others challenge them frivolously then costs will of course be awarded against them.

[David Cohen]

Quite simply, the worst of all possible proposals - guaranteeing a divided Church of England.

Those who decided that a Synod was the best way to run the Church have condemned it to self-destruction within one generation.

[Tom Jackson]

“The comments made by male respondents confirm my belief that men are worthless.”

I would have thought that someone with any degree of intelligence (as suggested by the addition of a title before one’s name) would recognize that in order for such a statement to be statistically accurate, the basis on which it is formed would need to take account of those male contributors who consider the issue to be too frivolous, banal or inconsequential to make any comment at all.

[Terry]

Democratise the Church of England dictatorship now. Register every member of the CoE who wishes to vote and then have a referendum on this matter and every other. The decision of the democratic majority should prevail in practice. The alternative is continued sickness until death for the CofE. Democratise - or die.

[Spike]

Reading the comments of certain men on this post, it really does confirm to me why christianity is a dying religion. I thought that Christ was meant to be message for good, not the furtherance of ignorance, bigotry and greedy self-interest. Over the last 1000 years, men in power have made a complete mess of this world, yet they still refuse to 'share'. Shrivelled brains to go with their women fearing, shrivelled b**ls. May they rot in their hell. Athiesm is the only acceptable answer to this nonsense.

[Stephen Clark]

Amidst all this....I still want to ask about what provision is being made for those people who find themselves supporting women in the episcopate who are denied this by their ordinaries (as in Sydney, Nigeria, ...) where are the CB's who will come in and compensate for the defective ministries of bishops who will only lay hands on men

[J Pearce]

Why not just call women Bishops…err…"Bishop"? Simple, rational, accurate, easy-to-remember.

Oh, sorry, I forgot - we're talking about the Church here, aren't we? An institution hell bent on offending the Plain English campaign at every turn, on a mission to mangle the meaning of every possible word in the English language.

All in the name of mollifying a bunch of pensionable mysoginists.

Why are these senile old dotards allowed out into the community anyway? What possible benefit do they give to society? Don't they have care homes to live in?!

[Will carter]

The C of E should have realised that the question of female bishops would inevitably follow on from the first ordination of women. Having taken that fatefull first step, the appointment of female bishops becomes imperative and unarguable, since all argument has already taken place; thus the result must stand.
For those members of the clergy (and congregation?)who find this unacceptable, why not employ ''Counsellor Bishops'' to guide the consciences of the 'refusers'

[Will carter]

The C of E should have realised that the question of female bishops would inevitably follow on from the first ordination of women. Having taken that fatefull first step, the appointment of female bishops becomes imperative and unarguable, since all argument has already taken place; thus the result must stand.
For those members of the clergy (and congregation?)who find this unacceptable, why not employ ''Counsellor Bishops'' to guide the consciences of the 'refusers'

[John Ledbury]

Any sociology book will tell you that institutions are started by men, invaded by wimmin and then lose their status and die out. The CofE is a dead duck, but as for names while it gasps its last, the bishops remaining should be called what they are: bishops. It's wimmin bishops who need the new name.

[Graeme Buttery]

Here we go again! I don't blame the Manchester group for this sow's ear of a measure ( although no doubt Synod will be told it is a silk purse). However the fact that we apparently must do something even if it is unworkable tripe, over waiting and doing something better down the line, means that this , if it survives the process, will do nothing of any good for anyone on any side of the debate.

Graeme Buttery

[John Dutton]

It seems The Church of England has a death wish. It is slowly creeping towards irrelevance and ignominy. The limp wristed hand wringing, is so sad to watch. Where is the strong leadership that is so evident in other denominations. Pray, for someone to emerge who will boot all this trendy new-age girly godliness into the long grass.

[Dr MaryAnn Wimsatt]

The comments made by male respondents confirm my belief that men are worthless. As my daughter says, 'If there is a God, God sure screwd up in making men.'

[cp36]

What is wrong with a woman bishop? It is the brain that determines what a person is. So far there is no scientific evidence that a woman is less intelligent than a man. There are women who are smart and men who are stupid. So what is the difference?

By not allowing woman bishops they are curtailing the career prospects of a woman just because she is a woman. It means less salary and status. I think it is not fair.

Cheers

[pomoc]

"CompBishop" In the US or vegas that would mean free that works for me.

[Andrew, Venezuela]

It now seems that "women bishops" are going to be forced down our unwilling throats, like it or not, so it only remains to invent a suitable abbreviated title for them. I could suggest two viable and space-saving possibilities:

1. "WBs" (= "Women Bishopesses"), preferably pronounced "WeeBees" as in the affectionate term by which the "Wee Frees" are known in Scotland, so as not to cause confusuon with "WCs".

2. "FABs" (= "Female Anglican Bishopesses"), a delightfully modernistic term which would correctly define their precise role, credibility and functions within the episcopate.

Perhaps new dioceses will have to be invented to accomodate the ladies ?. Would it also be appropriate to request them to use a saltire cross ("X"), rather than the normal episcopal cross ("+"), before their names and new Sees ?. How fascinating it will prove to hear about the procrastinations of "X Prima Donna, FAB of Much Binding-in-the-Marsh" !!!.

Best New Year wishes to all readers and commentators.

[H Atkinson]

Hmm. Why notjust Bishop? Works here. If if's job titles that are wanted, Bishop Diocesan, Bishop Coadjutor, Bishop Suffragan, Bishop Assistant, and dare I, for Flying Bishop, Bishop Perigrine?

[Vivien]

Why cannot "men of the cloth" understand that a person's spirit is called to the ministry, not his or her genitals. I am sure a soul has neither X- nor Y-chromosomes. How women can bear to be associated with such neanderthals as they try to rise through the ranks is beyond me, but I applaud them.

[ElizabethR]

How about Balls-R-Us?

[Pageantmaster]

ExtraOrdinary Bishops?

[Charles]

Proxy Bishop...?

The word ‘complementary’ seems to me to have too many syllables for everyday usage.

[Stephen Marsden]

It's 'none of the above' for me, Ruth - as the real name has to be 'fantasy bishops' - because I'm betting that not one of those currently apposed to women bishops will be prepared to act as complementary bishops. For, if you don't believe she is a bishop, how on earth can you act episcopally for her?

It's interesting that, despite opponents repeating ad nauseam that a code of pratice will not do, that is all that the dear old CofE can come up with. It's as though the lights are on but there is no one at home! Too, too sad - and what a waste of money.

PS I assume that any judicial review (see para 12 of the illustrative code of practice) will be paid for by the Church Commissioners???

[Fr. Ed Tomlinson]

Totally useless. As you say it is not legally binding - and therefore not even worth reading.

Secondly it is profoundly sexist. I am an opponent of women in holy orders. But not because they are women (and thus need a man to come to me) rather because I am not convinced they are Bishop (and can thus have nothing to do with them nor any other person, male or not, standing in their place acting under their (very sacramentally and legally questionable) position.

So back to the drawing board please Manchester. An ecclesiological problem requires an ecclesiological (structural) solution. Anything else just legislates for nonsensical bigotry. (ie anyone with true Caholic conviction would be forced to leave but sexists remain)

[Pete A]

Women bishops: what's the answer?

A good supply of choirgirls ;)

[Gregory of Langres]

I'd go with "CompBishop" - it indicates "Complementary" and "Competent" which is more than can be said for most...