More depressing news from Gaza

The dreadful images and words pouring out of Gaza continue. Take this description from Martin Fletcher and Azmi Keshawi in today's Times of what a Red Cross and Red Crescent rescue team found: 'In one house they discovered four small children - alive but terrified, emaciated and too weak to stand - lying on mattresses next to 12 corpses including those of their mothers.' 'It was like a very ugly scene from a horror movie,' said one of the rescuers. Today Israel is accused in a UN report of evacuating dozens of people including children into a house and then shelling it, killing 30. The  Red Cross has also accused Israel of unacceptable behaviour. It seems food is about to run out. Update: As we report, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Liverpool is the latest to condemn the violence.

Meanwhile Memri reports on Shabab Al-Mujahideen in Somalia where activists are threaten to demolish churches: 'We will establish Islamic rule from Alaska and Chile to South Africa, and from Japan to Russia – Beware, We Are Coming,' according to one broadcast recorted by Memri.

Comments

[Norman]

I keep wondering ... who would you rather have as a neighbour: Israel or Hamas?

If Islam obliterates Israel, as Hamas wishes, who do you think will be next on the list?

[Bro. Ronald]

Ms. Catherine;
Your views regarding the Jews is twisted.
Madam; Hamas started this not Israel. Let's say someone was lobbing Missles or bombs in your backyard..what would be your reaction to this behavior?

Correct...I'd do the same...

[Tom Jackson]

“I've never expressed any support for Hamas, Kate.”

Where a murderous organization such as Hamas is concerned, tacit acceptance is as good as an expression of support.

Whatever their claims of justification for the indiscriminate launching of unguided rockets into a civilian community, the training and encouragement of suicide bombers targeted at unsuspecting civilian men, women and children in markets and on buses, whatever claims they make to be representative of Palestinians, they are as cowardly, internationally criminal and manically determined as the Al Qaeda murderers of 7/11 and 7/7.

[Geoffrey Smith]

"However, I do not accept or believe in Zionism."
- Merseymike, 12 JAN 2009, 12:21

You don't accept or believe in Christianity either, Merseymike, but it exists and it isn't going to go away. You will just have to live with it and work out a modus vivendi, and in the same way come to terms with the fact of Israel.

[Fran]

So the UN is accusing Israel of deliberately moving people to a house so it could shell them. Well, I for one don't believe a word of it. This is the same UN which has systematically ignored flagrant violations of humans rights by favoured members, whose 'peacekeepers' have been guilty time and again of abusing and exploiting the people they are supposed to be protecting, whose secretary general stood by and did nothing when he knew about the impending genocide in Rwanda. I could go on.

Yet the only country that the UN is really concerned about condemning is the Jewish state. Now why should that be, folds?

Palestinian leaders had every opportunity to create a viable economic entity in Gaza after the complete Israeli withdrawal in 2005. Israel had every interest in the project succeeding and by supplying electricity, medical help in their hospitals and economic aid, tried to help it. The Israelis were rewarded by the Palestinians trashing greenhouses and other plant which could have provided much needed jobs, food and exports. Then the leadership turned Gaza into a full scale launch pad to attack Israel. No wonder Israel closed the borders (as did Egypt, although few people bother to mention that).

Since then, everything Israel has tried to do to discourage terrorist attacks from Gaza has met with howls of protest from those who would deny Jews their right to self-determination in their ancient homeland - which by the way, Mike, is the definition of the Zionism you claim to reject.

How come it's always the fault of the Jewish state? Wake up folks, and smell the coffee!

[Merseymike]

I've never expressed any support for Hamas, Kate. I think it unfortunate that they are in the leadership position they occupy, but they are, so....

However, I do not accept or believe in Zionism.

[Tom Jackson]

“But do you really consider that 800 deaths are demanded for these killings?”

Back we come to the argument of ‘proportionality’, a perspective that has absolutely no validity because no-one can identify or apply any criteria or rules that would define what is acceptable and what is not.

I don’t recall an incident involving the Chinese embassy but in 1984, when I was 37 years old, I do remember that a police officer, WPC Yvonne Fletcher, was killed from a shot fired from within the Libyan embassy in central London.

It is an insult to our intelligence - and getting the facts wrong at the same time - to compare the response to that isolated incident, horrific and devasting though it was, with Israel’s response to the continual attack over a period of 8 years by Hamas using suicide bombers and unguided rockets!

What you should be praising is the restraint and repeated attempts by Israel to find a peaceful and mutually acceptable solution during those 8 years while suffering such an onslaught!

Hamas are an Iranian-backed terrorist force that has infiltrated the Palestinian community with one objective; to provoke Israel into actions which diminish the support they enjoy from nations such as the UK and the US.

Remember, Iran has a stated objective of destroying Israel, not just containing the Jewish people within an Arab understanding of Israeli borders but killing or driving Israelis from the Middle East completely! If there was the slightest willingness to accept Israel as a presence in the area, a solution would have been reached long ago.

So, answer me this; what evidence to you have to suggest that Israel would be taking military action in Gaza now if Hamas, through their indiscriminate rocket attacks, were not pursuing their Iranian master’s objective?

Why on earth would Israelis be risking their international standing and support, risking condemnation and isolation with such powerful military action if they hadn’t realized, after eight, long years, that such action was necessary as the only means to protect their civilian population.

[andrew holden]

"Murder is hideous, but as at the Nurenberg Trials, a complete distinction is to be made by those actively engaged in the mass slaughter of civilians as we are seeing now in Gaza."

Facts? None of us is seeing what is actually going on - unfortunately. Neverthless I very much doubt that the IDF is 'actively engaged in the mass slaughter of civilians'. What is happening is indeed terrible but none of us have evidence that the laws of war are being flouted on a widespread scale and indeed ISTM from reports that Israel is trying very hard to minimise the civilian casualties which are inevitable in this kind of war. Ultimate responsibility for the tragedy of civilian lives lost in Gaza lies with the terrorist organisation holding those innocents hostage.

"After all this, I wonder if the Israeli tank commanders and warplane pilots will also say "I was just following orders". "

Again, I very much doubt it. Most western armies train their soldiers in the laws of war and are fully aware that the Nuremberg Defence is inadmissable. Soldiers know that they are individually responsible for their use of lethal force and will be held to account for it both morally and legally.

[j]

How interesting that it was hoax. Thank you for explaining.

I posted on the other thread asking if now is not a good time for both sides to repent and admit what they have done wrong. Even those here with profound personal loyalties must admit that there is blame on both sides here.

Would it be so terrible to admit it, to recognise that both sides have stared into the abyss now, and both have to see that war (and terrorism) is no solution to this.

There are some who would call me soppy and naive- indeed they already have done- but we cannot build a lasting peace from these materials in front of us today.

[ElizabethR]

"Unfortunately the UNICT does not apply the death sentence, but life imprisionment (sic) would be a second best." Catherine.

Good idea. Lets ALL join in and identify with the murdering bastards affiliated to both sides of these numerous conflicts, in the name of religion or humanity. That's the way to do it. Come to think of it, in the name of righteouness, peace and civilisation we could draw up exceptionally long partisan lists of those we decide are in the frame globally and slaughter the lot of them. Shouldn't cause much resentment or prolong the violence into subsequent generations or anything... It's always worked before.... oh, er, no...

(I admire your apparent ability to arrive at exactly who is unerringly right and who is absolutely wrong having (obviously) studied the various histories of this tragic situation sufficently to wield the axe. And this from a position built on such obvious bias and vacuity. You are possibly unique.)

[Kate]

"Interesting that still, despite all the evidence, some cannot face the fact that Israel's atrocities are unacceptable" (Merseymike)

Interesting too that, despite the atrocities Hamas has perpetrated on its own electorate; eliminating the opposition (Fatah), terrorising and depriving the ordinary people of Gaza in the name of a greater Islamic ideal; NO self-identified 'humanitarian' on this blog EVER utters one word of condemnation.

'None as queer as folk' Mike. Our ability to indulge in and, and at the same time deny, our own deepest prejudice is infinite.

It is impossible to ignore the dichotomy; between the inhumane attitude to Jewish 'rights', and the insights you have so successfully disseminated in a more personal field of interest.

[Hussein Mustafa]

It was Hamas who started the warring by resorting to fire against the Israels without anyjustification.The Islamic Fundamentalists all over the world maintained mute silence.Even the Pakistan leadership including the corrupt duplicitor Musharaff even went to the length of declaring that the terrorists attack killing several innoceants was the direct result of the Isreal attack on Hamas.The entire gang of Pakistani leadership joined this chrous.The leadership of cowards must bedelt with severly as the have no guts to fight.

[Jacquie Butterfield]

Have noted that so far not one Palestinian person has ever suggested they might have a small part in culpability for current events. Even a learned medico living in the UK said absolutely not willing to admit even partial blame.

Culpability, and humility…..and also courage to stand tall and say "Yes, I did that, I admit it"....are not part of the social cultural imprint of the Palestinian and possibly Islamic peoples.

Any kind of courage to stand up tall and say (in any situation) "yes I did that" is impossible….because the culture is set up to inflict major punishment on the confessor and the family and clan. The society’s social pressures preclude behaviours which are part of the better qualities of people following Buddhist and Hindu philosophies and Judao-Christian religions.

In places where the dagger rules there cannot ever be progress. Education is a threat to those who have ruled by dagger. Fighting and throwing stones is much more fun than going to school. The ignorant do not comprehend or appreciate the consequences of either when carried out over years.

We know that Hate Destroys and Love Builds….which is why Gaza is destroyed. Hamas offers nothing positive for anyone anywhere and their ordinary citizens are afraid to speak up.

No sons, fathers or husbands listen to mothers or wives in the Gaza.

Around the world it is said that Jewish wives rule.

If true, the comparison of results between Jews and Muslims in terms of equality, social welfare, fairness and opportunity points to the value of turning Islamic society on its head and upgrading the voice and status of women. Women nurture and men fight. Outcome of nurture is hope, well-being and growth. What is the outcome of fighting? More fighting. Dump males on their heads and put women on top....education maties!!

[Lester]

Of course the bloodshed of innocents in Gaza is very sad but to help understand what Israel has been forced to do, let's consider what it might look like nearer to home.

Imagine that, despite having been given its autonomy in return for peace, the Welsh Assembly is still intent on the destruction of England and Welsh militants fire rockets across the border at Bristol, Hereford etc., killing indiscrimminately.

How long would we let Gordon Brown stand by without sending in the army to remove the threat? With the militants esconced in ordinary housing estates, there would undoubtedly be civilian casualties. When aggression against a country is actively supported by its elected representatives then that's war, purely and simply.

Why then is Israel being painted as the aggressor by the British press (particularly the BBC) when it is defending its citizens in response to a declaration of war?

[Bro. Ronald]

Hamas started this entire fiasco. Yet the UN and their socialist-left leaning colleagues along with the left-media Try and paint Israel as the Villians. Always the photos of wounded or dead children of palestians on page one..or Newsreel film of same. Hamas hides behind innocent civilians.storew their weapons in mosques..various homes etc.

They are cowards ans butchers. until the innocent palestinians turn against them it will never cease.

This is the face of nothing more then religious hatred by these people.

In all sincerity I'd like to see Israel drive these zealots all the way into the Sea and drown them all. The UN is a puppet for Hamas...

[Dr. Irene Lancaster]

I think the leader in your own paper on Saturday sums up the situation perfectly, placing the blame fairly and squarely on Iran

[Catherine]

Andy
By all means the Hamas members who have shot rockets into Israel should be accused of murder, and, if found guilty, they should be punished according to law. Not Israeli law which would have them bombed, and their homes destroyed, and their countrymen & women shelled and blasted to bits.
But murder is not the same as a war crime.
Murder is hideous, but as at the Nurenberg Trials, a complete distinction is to be made by those actively engaged in the mass slaughter of civilians as we are seeing now in Gaza.
After all this, I wonder if the Israeli tank commanders and warplane pilots will also say "I was just following orders".

[Catherine]

Tom
Numerous lamentable examples of some people being killed in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, does not justify wholesale slaughter.
You may recall, if you are old enough, that many years ago a Chinese man who worked in the Chinese embassy in London, stormed out of the front door and shot to death a British policewoman.
I forget his reason but that incident enraged many people who demanded revenge. The embassy was of course considered as Chinese territory so nothing very drastic was done.
The British government did not however send a swarm of warplanes to bomb Beijing.
With age comes reflecton and moderation, although I would have probably wanted revenge at that time.
I really don't know how many Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets--maybe 15 or 20 over the years.
But do you really consider that 800 deaths are demanded for these killings?
In the fury of war one may cry, "I'll kill 1000 for every one of mine killed", but that leads to more and more and more deaths and yet more generations of revengeful youths prepared to give their blood just to hurt the enemy.
The Gazan people have been badgered, downtrodden, impoverished and mistreated by the Israelis for many years and one can't but sympathize with their anger.
I'm afraid I just cannot side with those who still see Israelis as the underdogs, deserving complete and everlasting sympathy due to the atrocities they suffered in WWII.
Aided and abettted by the US, Israel has become a monster in the fancy dress of a democratic nation.
The truth is that these people are brought up on the dogmas and ancient hatreds of the Old Testament, together with the racial extremism that is Zionism, and which cause them to feel that they are the chosen people and can do anything they wish in the name of their God.
It ain't like that any more.

[H.Jay]

My reply to Catherine is, What about Blair and Bush and the US and UK Congress and Parliament who voted for unlawful invasions and war in Iraq and killing thousands of civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan? And in any case how are your supporters going to capture the Israeli political and military representatives you hate so much which of course shows your vile anti-Jew feelings like the Nazis who themselves got elected through democratic means to answer also some other idiots from Ireland etc.

[David Hodgson]

Israel is not the victim here. It is Palestinians who need freedom and justice because of their way their land, their lives and their futures have been stolen by the aggressive and illegal expansion of Israel. How would any of us feel or react if our homeland had been occupied by a foreign power for sixty years and we had no citizenship or sovereign rights? It's strange to me how Israel's sympathesizers condemn Palestinian efforts to assert their right to self-determination, constantly blaming it for being aggressive; whilst being quite ready to accept the apparent necessity of the indiscrimate slaughter of women and children in Gaza on a massive scale.
Well not so strange I suppose; when you think that Zionism is the currrent manifestation of European colonialism - and we know how European colonisers have dealt with the indigeneous people of their annexed territories when those people tried to assert their freedom.

[j]

Hi Ruth, sorry to see you have taken down your original post on this, with its useful quotation of the statement from a British Jewish group on their views on peace.

I thought it was a good statement- could we have it back?

(rg comments, the statement was a hoax, which the BBC has reported on..)

[Andy]

Catherine: Will you also be putting Hamas leaders on trial for their five year campaign of suicide bombings and rocket attacks on women, children and old people in Israel? what plans to you have to get them to halt their terror attacks on Israel?

[Tom Jackson]

“After all this massacre has finished, the Israelis responsable for this must be brought before the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal.”

And how would you bring those responsible in Hamas before an International Court of Justice?

Yossi Chymov, a 10 year old critically injured when a rocket fell near a school in Sderot; Amnon Ronsenberg, a 52-year-old father of three killed by Hamas mortar shells and Shir-El Friedman, a 35 year old woman killed when a Qassam rocket struck a car in the western Negev town of Sderot as a result of actons taken before Israel responded to indiscriminate rocket attacks by Hamas.

What justice would you give these civilians or is it not a crime to indiscriminately launch deadly weapons against a nation if that nation is Israel?

“So, Catherine, I ask you; did you raise your voice in condemnation against Hamas as they launched their murderous attacks against this civilian population?“

Still no response.

[David Cohen]

More depressing news from Gaza: the UN resolution has been rejected by Hamas, whose actions brought this about in the first place.

[Merseymike]

Interesting that still, despite all the evidence, some cannot face the fact that Israel's atrocities are unacceptable - full stop

[Catherine]

After all this massacre has finished, the Israelis responsable for this must be brought before the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal.
Israel as a UN member is obliged to cooperate fully with this tribunal.

The charge could be, per the 1949 Geneva Convention:

Collective punishments are a war crime. Article 33 of the Fourth Convention states: "No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed," and "collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation......are prohibited."

Some of those to be held responsable would be:
Perez, Shimon-President of Israel
Olmert, Ehud-Prime Minister of Israel
Halutz, Dan-Military Chief of Staff
Shkedy, Elyezer-Airforce Chief
Ashkenazi, Gabi-Chief of the IDF
Livni, Tzipi-Minister of the Exterior
Vatikai, Yardin-Chief of the National Information Directorate
Gissin, Amir-Public Relations Director of the Foreign Ministry
Regev, Mark-Spokesman for the Prime Minister

Unfortunately the UNICT does not apply the death sentence, but life imprisionment would be a second best.

[Peter Kirk]

See also Hamas' own charter, at http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp, which includes such gems as "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement" and "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it". So not much hope for a peaceful solution while Hamas is still running Gaza. The sad thing is that the people of Gaza didn't realise that by electing Hamas they were voting for their own destruction.

[Geoffrey Smith]

"Being killed is nothing new to us. It is what we desire and hope for." - Safwat Higazi, Egyptian cleric.

I think at this point, if this nutter is pretty general among the Muslims, we can say goodbye to any hope of a peaceful settlement in the Middle East. More than ever we must be resigned to a fight to the finish between Israel and the Arabs, or those citizens of the Arab states who are fanatics, like this cleric. Only if and when the Muslims in general disown and reject people like Higazi will there be a ghost of a chance for peace. I am not holding my breath.

[Fr. Van Windsor]

"...from Alaska and Chile to South Africa, and from Japan to Russia – Beware, We Are Coming..." Don't worry, Sarah Palin will kick their collective butts :)

[colin froman]

Mr Peter Brookes might try a couple of humanitarian rockets from Hamas available now for eight years, and British Jewry might possibly enjoy the support of the British Public (the silent majority) whose parents and grandparents survived (or didn't!) the blitz of 1940 et seq up to 7/7
Colin Froman