Archbishop of Canterbury 'regrets' TEC move to gay ordination

 The Archbishop of Canterbury told General Synod today that he 'regrets' the decision by The Episcopal Church house of deputies to overturn the moratorium on the ordination of gay bishops. At the same time, the Presiding Bishop Katherine Jefferts Schori has warned the Church of England that it should not recognise the new Anglican Church in North America, arguing 'schism is not a Christian act.' And just minutes ago, as The Lead reports, TEC has taken a significant step towards overturning the moratorium on same-sex blessings as well.

Responding to a question by Chris Sugden of Anglican Mainstream, Dr Williams said: 'As for General Convention it remains to be seen I think whether the vote of the House of Deputies will be endorsed by the House of Bishops. If the House of Bishops chooses to block then the moratorium remains. I regret the fact that there is not the will to observe the moratorium in such a significant part of the Church in North America but I can't say more about that as I have no details.' Dr Williams also responded to concerns about the funding for the 'listening process' saying that he had been personally involved in securing that funding and had been completely unaware of any 'agenda' attached to the funding.

The deputies are the clergy and laity of The Episcopal Church. The bishops will meet later today or early tomorrow to vote on whether the moratorium on gay episcopal consecrations should be overturned.

The resolution DO25, if passed by the bishops, will overturn the previous B033 which backed the moratorium on gay ordinations and that was passed at the General Convention in 2006 after the Primates of the Anglican Communion requested three moratoria in line with the Windsor Report. The new resolution, which will be voted on by the bishops soon, includes the crucial acknowledgement 'that God has called and may call any individual in the church to any ordained ministry in the Episcopal Church, in accordance with the discernment process set forth in the Constitution and Canons of the church.'

In fact the vote represents a direct snub to Dr Williams, who in his sermon to the Convention last Thursday urged an opposite course of action. He said, 'Of course I am coming here with hopes and anxieties – you know that and I shan't deny it. Along with many in the Communion, I hope and pray that there won't be decisions in the coming days that will push us further apart.

'But if people elsewhere in the Communion are concerned about this, it's because of a profound sense of what the Episcopal Church has given and can give to our fellowship worldwide. If we - if I – had felt that we could do perfectly well with out you, there wouldn't be a problem. But the bonds of relationship are deep, for me personally as for many others. And I'm tempted to adapt what St Paul says to the Corinthians in the middle of a set of tensions no less bitter than what we have been living through and in the wake of challenges from St Paul a good deal more savage than even the sharpest words from Primates or Councils: 'Why? Because we do not love you? God knows we do."

You can listen to Canon Sugden's question at the start of this MP3 from today's Synod debate and the Archbishop's response about two minutes in.

Earlier, Bishop Jefferts Schori 'threw a hand grenade' into the proceedings, as USA Today's Faith and Reason blog put it, when she said that the tendency to focus on individual salvation was 'heresy' and idolatry'.

Her hope that the Church of England will not recognise the Anglican Church in North America might be futile in any case. A private member's motion put down this weekend at the General Synod calls for the Church of England to be 'in communion' with the new province. It has already received 121 signatures, more than the 100 needed to guarantee it a place on the next Synod agenda in February, representing about a quarter of the Synod so far. Of these, four, Blackburn, Winchester, Rochester and Europe, are diocesan bishops and two more are suffragans.

This is all pretty scarily serious and it is difficult to see where else it is going to end apart from in schism.

In the face of this, Dr Williams has retained his sense of humour.

Presenting a video on the recent Anglican Consultative Council meeting in Jamaica to the Synod, he joked about one of the main acts of worship: 'In the light of all the Bob Marley we were singing I should assure people the clouds we saw in the service were genuinely incense.'

And earlier, talking to some of my colleagues about what he would do were he to become 'supreme leader' of the Church of England, he said his first action would be to abolish religion correspondents.

So what would we do instead?

'I hope that you might become human.'

Below are some of us with some of the CofE press officers at the annual Synod drinks at the Deanery in York after the main Synod service at the Minister, where Archbishop of York Dr John Sentamu preached. Which are the humans? Can you tell the difference?

All photos except the last by Tim Smith of Guzelian.

Comments

[Malcolm+]

I have no interest in defaming, Alan. I'm merely challenging those who attempt to defame others.

Perhaps I should call you Cinderella.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, it seems you are so desperate to defame that you even resort to inventing quotations in order to keep up your campaign.

Do remember that this blog is definitely not "Thinking" Anglicans.

[Malcolm+]

There is a difference between "used Zen meditation techniques" and "ascribed to Buddhist doctrines."

I suppose it is possible that you are too thick to understand the difference - and frankly, that is a more charitable interpretation that the one I'm inclined to.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, it seems to be a case of "he smoked but did not inhale". I would explain it to you but you seem content with the American approach to spin.

[Malcolm+]

No Humpty or Dumpty here.

At no point (including in the so-called lay ordination service) did Forrester ascribe to Buddhist doctrine. He used Buddhist meditation techniques - as have any number of Christians.

You are determined to bear false witness regardless the facts, Alan. For the sake of your soul, man, stop.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, anyone who has submitted himself to Buddhist teaching (except in the Anglican Church of Canada, it seems) would be properly described as a Buddhist.
But in your Humpty-Dumpty world, a word means whatever you want it to mean, nothing more and nothing less.

[Malcolm+]

The matter of the "lay ordination" was endlessly discussed and it was clearly established that it did not represent anything like an affirmation of Buddhist theology. Trust you, Alan, to offer up half truths.

There were several real problems with Forrester which led to his failure to obtain the necessary consents. His departures from authorized liturgies were a significant part of this. Your particular half-truth cum untruth was not one of them, having been clearly discredited.

Pity that gets in the way of your slander campaign.

[Alan Marsh]

Actually, Forrester admits that he has undergone a form of "lay ordination" as he terms it within Buddhism, a religion which denies the divinity and uniqueness of Jesus Christ.
Evidently, Malcolm, this does not matter to the Anglican Church of Canada - or you don't understand the significance of it.
Forrester does, which is why he issued an unauthorised liturgy of his own.
Even TEC understood what was going on!

[Malcolm+]

I've read Forrester's statement. He is very clear that he is not a Buddhist.

Simply repeating your falsehoods will not make them true, Alan.

Your posts remind me of a cartoon depicting Plato in conversation with Karl Rove. Rove says: "surely you agree that truth can be created by the repetition of a lie."

[J Pearce]

Malcolm, you do seem to have a deep-seated problem with truth. Everyone who disagrees with you is accused of lying or blank incomprehension.

Such an approach to rational discussion might well be your style when dealing with church members, but it does not work here.

But...is this not an entirely accurate description of your entire modus operandi, "Dr" Marsh?

Or would it be more accurate to say that you prefer to ignore facts altogether when they don't suit your prejudices...?

Your understanding of "truth" appears to be a little "one-eyed", don't you think?

Pot, kettle, God in one's own hubristic image etc etc...

[Dr Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, [snip] All I can suggest (for the benefit of other readers) is that you find Forrester's own statement, freely available on the web, and read it.

[Malcolm+]

Alan, I see your slandermongering continues.

Forrester is not nor ever was a Buddhist and to claim that he was or is can only be described as untruth.

He has used Buddhist meditation techniques. That is not the same thing, and even you should be able to grasp that subtle distinction.

There were other problems with Forrester which led to him being denied the necessary consents. The false claim that he was a Buddhist was a slander spread by reactionary extremists like you - and apparently PMY.

[Dr Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, I found the Forrester article on Google in one click. Before accusing people of untruth, why not do a little research of your own?

[Malcolm+]

Alan, perhaps in your parochial little corner of England you can tell slanderous tales about places you've never been. It isn't doing you any good here.

PMY, go look for that interview where Forrester supposedly admitted he was a Buddhist. When you are unable to find this non-existent article, I trust you will post again to admit you were in error.

[pmy008]

He's admitted to it in an interview, it is hardly slander to repeat this. I'll go and find the interview when I return home if it helps.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, you do seem to have a deep-seated problem with truth. Everyone who disagrees with you is accused of lying or blank incomprehension.

Such an approach to rational discussion might well be your style when dealing with church members, but it does not work here.

[Malcolm+]

Perhaps not, Alan. But one only has to read your post to get a very firm insight into what you don't know.

Your depiction of the Church in North America is a caricature drawn for you by cranks and hacks. You are happy to accept that caricature because it conforms to your prejudices.

PMY, please stop telling whoppers. The priest in question is not nor ever was a Buddhist. That was merely a slander, amply dismissed. Nonetheless, his election did not obtain the necessary consents due to other issues.

There is a word for people who wilfully repeat slander. Ruth is very sticky about allowing the use of that word, but I must say it seems to apply here.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, you don't have a clue how much I know about the situation.

[pmy008]

I see you've forgotten about the Zen Buddhist priest who was hoping to be made bishop. Didn't get the purple shirt, but he's still collared.

[Malcolm+]

Alan, Alan, Alan. You haven't got a clue what's going on over here. You only listen to people who will feed your delusions with delusions of your own.

The number of North American Anglicans who actually align with your slanderous caricatures is roughly on par with the number of North Americans who believe that lvis Presley is still alive, that Walt Disney is still in cryogenic preservation awaiting a cure for what killed him and that the moon landing was filmed at a soundstage in Texas.

[Alan Marsh]

What a silly comment, merseymike.

Perhaps you only associate with those who share your own jaundiced views, and judge others by your own standards?

[Merseymike]

But of course you will hear the jaundiced views of your American and Canadian friends who no doubt hold the same religious views as you do, Alan. Clearly they are not the majority in either the US or Canada, and with so many other headbanging primitive fundamentalist churches over there, why can't your mates join one of them and let TEC and ACoC make their own decisions. Which they will anyway, as what the so-called Communion thinks is neither here nor there. Given its make-up - largely people of the 'quality' of Akinola - rejecting it should be something any rational person would do.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm, the Canadians and Americans I know are far more representative of their church membership than activists like yourself, whose comments are generally in denial of the facts on the ground.

The only "paranoid delusions" which I have observed are those coming from church leaderships, such as those of TEC and ACoC, which were captured by entryists and are now completely out of touch with reality.

You will of course say that black is white, etc etc, but the time is fast approaching when the Anglican Communion as a whole will reject both denominations. Much of it already has.

When even Dr Williams can bring himself to regret the actions of TEC, the moment of decision is very near.

[Malcolm+]

Ah, but Alan, I'm not listening to the paranoid delusions of a handful of cranks and pretending that their ravings represent the facts on the ground. On the contrary, I recognize that the situation on the ground in complex and nuanced, with a wide range of players. So when some disgruntled vicar rages online about his horrible bishop, I can take it with a grain of salt, investigate various perspectives and cetera.

I contrast this with your own approach which is to take at face value any negative attack on the Episcopal Church, no matter how outrageous and no matter how little evidence, and to write off any defence.

[Alan Marsh]

Malcolm

I have not visited the USA, but that does not prevent me from discussing the situation regularly with American and Canadian friends using an amazing new invention called a telephone, or even reading the documents for myself on an even more wonderful invention called a web browser.

Sometimes friends from N America even visit this country!

Are you a regular visitor to England from your parish in Canada? You certainly have a great deal to say about the Church of England.

[Bill C]

RE:-> "Throughout the process of ACNA setting up its schism in North America, "

It should be noted that ACNA has remained true to the teachings of the church and has a very clear view of who Jesus was and why He was sent to us, ECUSA has veered away from Christianity's fundamental biblically centered beliefs.

Who has departed from the faith?? Not ACNA? Why have ACNA departed from ECUSA? Because they have left Christianity. ECUSA is the heart of Schism in the Communion. They claim they are an autonomous church. That is certainly true. They have chosen to go away from Christianity.

[Bill C]

A very strange mathematical exercise by Malcolm -once again full of the milk of human kindness.

[Malcolm+]

Alan has never visited Canada or the United States. This allows him to make all sorts of bald assertions without having to contend with anything resembling reality.

PMY, with tongue in cheek s/he says, repeats false witness and asks that we all take it as good fun. In fact, what you are repeating is slander, PMY. If we take, for example, the case of the "Muslim priest," the FACT is that her bishop suspended her immediately her irregular position came to be known, and has since defrocked her. But certain dishonest "conservatives" like to repeat half the story to imply that the particular priest's apostasy was accepted and affirmed. If you choose to repeat such dishonesty, PMY, I decline to take it as all good fun.

[pmy008]

"we don't believe in a Christianity defined by the prejudices and bigotries of the past but in a faith characterized by love and acceptance for all people"

Interesting that when people think about love they only ever think about the good stuff. Anyone ever wondered why parents discipline their children?

Also, does acceptance of the person mean that they should be allowed to teach, preach and minister? If so, when do we start signing up the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc?

[sacrasm]Oh, TEC have already done that[/sarcasm]

(A bit naughty perhaps, but I hope it was taken in the spirit of cheek that it was meant)

[Alan Marsh]

James Warren:

I have never visited the USA and am too old to do so now. But I have a number of American and Canadian friends, who are "conventional, mostly professional, and mostly middle-aged people", and all appalled by the repudiation by their churches of Christian teaching.

Unfortunately, they and most Americans and Canadians have allowed their churches to be taken over by radical activists, the results of which are now all too apparent, and confirmed this week by those meeting at the General Convention, where campus politics has replaced Christian deliberation.

[Jon R]

The American church has been on a journey which has, as a recent Bishop of Tasmania has commented, requires us to play Aussie rules on a square field with eleven men a side with a round ball. It may be football, but it is not Aussie rules.

In regard to the last photo, I would comment, but I would then have to report myself to the Professional standards committee. Hubba hubba!

[Peter Palladas]

You have to adore a Church that embraces: a chubby old fellow, tie tucked into his trousers, sporting a photo on his delegate badge clearly taken 100 years ago in earnest chat with a bearded wonder out of some dank Armenian cave but who was, in all probability, raised a blameless George in Willesden Green; two blokes by the river possibly about to have a gay moment though maybe just wishing they were fishing instead; three other young blokes with seriously bad hair and a dress sense that died but won't lie down with one young woman clearly fully aware she has them all in a hormonal frenzy; an Archbishop who should have known better than to tumble-dry his vestments on the hot setting; a glum female acolyte all 'Yeah, right of course I know it's a phallic symbol so just don't hassle me OK'; and a certifiably insane, grinning grey-bob on a mini-scooter.

Trollope you should be living now.

[Lewis Winders]

Can anyone who goes to work on a scooter be all bad?

[Malcolm+]

Of course, Alan, one can accomplish many things with statistics - particularly if the statistics are manipulated enough.

Although ACNA originally claimed an average Sunday attendance in the order of 100,000, the first hard data reflected an ASA more in the order of 80,000. More recently, that number has been downgraded further to 60,000ish.

Now, of that 60,000ish, some significant number (FiF members, for instance) are actually still members of the Episcopal Church. And a further significant number - something in the order of 20,000 plus - are from the Reformed Episcopal Church which actually separated more than a century ago over high church liturgical practices.

So, for ease of figuring, let's call that 60,000 minus 25,000 equals 35,000 who have actually left the Episcopal Church.

Comparing that 35,000 with TEC's ASA of 700,000, it would mean that only five percent or one twentieth have decamped. And that's using ASA rather than raw membership data, which most observers would concede actually works to ACNA's advantage.

[stuck in Toronto]

What is really wrong here is the assumption that objection to SSB'S and WO. is discrimination.

[Robert Ian Williams]

George Bernard Shaw: There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics.

[Peter Palladas]

C of E - check, with you there. So far so straight-forward.

But then we have: 'TEC' (high and low presumably), 'ACNA', 'ECA', 'ABC' (Know that one!), 'ECA-impaired' (poor wee mites), 'CANA' (wine anyone?), 'HTB', 'HSBC' (OK, that's just a name check to my bank), 'FoCA/GAFCON' (The lot of them say I!), 'pre-ACNA' (Very tense)...

...'ECUSA' me, but I've just noticed someone else has already done this joke. FoCA! Makes me feel very RC.

[James Warren]

To Alan Marsh

The Episcopal Church, once one of the brightest jewels in the crown of the Anglican Communion, has entered into cohabitation with the extreme ideology of secular campus politics, and has become no longer recognisable as a true representative of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever set foot in an Episcopal Church? Episcopalians are conventional, mostly professional, and mostly middle-aged people. Extreme campus radicals they certainly are not. Come along on a Sunday and see for yourself.

[Merseymike]

Then the Archbishop of Canterbury is a homophobic bigot.

And the decline of Christianity as it becomes a redoubt for the terminally out of date continues.

[Arthur]

I still fail to see any arguments for why in order for TEC to do what it wants, the CoE cannot say that they wish to be in communion with the orthodox in ACNA as well. Or why for TEC to do what it wants it must not allow any orthodox parish to leave with as much as a crayon from the Sunday School supply tin, or must depose or remove the priest or bishop, as opposed to a simple letter of transfer. I must be missing why this is "a faith characterized by love and acceptance for all people".

(P.S. - Isn't a religious correspondent becoming human more like superman losing his powers?)

[David Cohen]

Robert Ian Williams,

CHURCH ATTENDANCE

It seems that TEC is managing to get about 30% of its declared membership.

The RC Church only manages about 25% in the UK.

Conclusion: even TEC is better than Rome....

[Alan Marsh]

Chris,

From a different perspective, one has to say that there are limits to the extent to which an existing church can deviate from orthodox Christian teaching, before it becomes itself so contaminated by heresy that it becomes schismatic - in separation from the truth.

This is why there was a Reformation in Europe and why the Church of England ceased to accept the jurisdiction of Rome, which had become hopelessly corrupted in the middle ages by its desire for power.

The same process is repeating itself in North America, where the Episcopal Church, once one of the brightest jewels in the crown of the Anglican Communion, has entered into cohabitation with the extreme ideology of secular campus politics, and has become no longer recognisable as a true representative of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Already 1/8 of its membership has transferred to ACNA: following this week's decisions by General Convention, many more faithful Anglicans will follow.

[James Warren]

Well, I for one am proud of the Episcopal Church, and since it is obvious that restraint gets us nowhere with the "traditionalists" (who seem only to be traditional when it comes to keeping gays and women in their traditional second-class statuses) we may as well stand up and say that we don't believe in a Christianity defined by the prejudices and bigotries of the past but in a faith characterized by love and acceptance for all people. We see that as the essence of the Gospel. TEC, for those who don't know it personally, is predominantly a church of well-educated professional people who overwhelmingly abhor discrimination based on gender and sexual preference, or any other such basis for that matter. I am truly sorry that that seems to offend some people.

[Joe in Indianapolis]

Until recently, the idea of the Communion (at least as viewed by most of my fellow American Episcopalians) was that it was a pleasant gathering of separate churches every now and then. Charities were supported, periodic statements about living well were issued, and other good-hearted sorts of things were thrown in with a bit of historical pomp. While an occassional resolution might have been made that seemed a bit snarky, we all knew that each church ruled its own flock and was not bound by the AC's gatherings. Grumpy great-uncles, we might think at those times. Indeed, it was only in junior high church school that I was even aware that the AC existed.

The Episcopal Church has finally decided to do what it believes is right. It's hardly rash to actually say what you believe, even if the distant cousins don't care much for the accent. It's not about giving the "middle finger" as some here seem to think. It's simply about being honest about its beliefs. While the Episcopal Church will probably lose another 100,000 or so of its members to more literal-thinking branches or denominations, the majority will remain -- thereby expressing what it as a church believes.

The issue has raised many questions for many members of liturgical denominations. Do not the petty squabbles, hate-filled threats (the Archbishop of Nigeria comes to mind here), and mindless adherence to bad traditions reveal the great chasm between faith and religion? Religion should assist those with faith, not hinder its discovery.

Joe in Indianapolis, United States

[pmy008]

"those who believed in individual salvation of conforming “to the great Western Heresy”"

The thing about this is that it is what ECUSA have been arguing for for years!

[Lewis Winders]

May we please have a breakdown of the sexual proclivities and histories of all of those clergy who are opposed to lifting the moratorium?

[Chris Gillibrand]

Last week, Katherine Jefferts Schori was accusing those who believed in individual salvation of conforming “to the great Western Heresy”, this week she is arguing 'schism is not a Christian act.' One is reminded of George Carey accusing those who could not support the women vicars of heresy. The young man who was told by Our Lord to sell all he had and give the money to the poor might be rather surprised that salvation is not centred on the individual.

Throwing around accusations of schism and heresy is a bit rich coming from Anglican prelates, for without the birth of these evil twins in the reign of King Henry VIII, there would be no Church of England.

[Peter]

A simple question: As the General Convention of the Episcopal Church continues to push the boundaries, will even Archbishop Williams ever say; "too far, by far"?

[Wolfgang]

Schori: "schism is not a Christian act".
Like she would know what anything Christian is.

[robroy]

Jenny Te Paa: "Oh you poor oppressed, victimized Episcopalians. You need to follow your spirit (of the flesh) and extend your middle finger to the rest of Anglican Communion."

A commentator at SF pointed out the same day that she was saying obsequious prattle, true Christians were being brutalized in India and churches being bombed in Iraq.

It seems the bishops have now given their overwhelming support to the middle finger extension. There is a little more committee work, but the die is cast.

[pmy008]

Just a thought, but is syncretism Christian?

As to the bigger picture, at some point people of faith have to stand up and be counted, drawing a line in the sand and declaring that enough is enough. A large group of Anglicans (I would guess a majority in terms of numbers) have done so and have said that they want to remain faithful to the beliefs of the church that have been a part of it's fabric for 2000 years. They have been told to "get with the times", in effect, by a church who are more than happy to be caring and discerning with people who are going against some basic teachings from the Bible and not repenting and yet they throw the legal book at people who they should be showing just as much care towards. Schism may not be a nice thing to go through, but let's face it, it wasn't the rest of the Anglican Communion that moved away from the TEC.

[Robert Ian Williams]

700,000 Episcopalians in Church out of 2,300,000.

!,000,000 Church of England communicants out of 27 million.

Isn't TEC doing well.

[Jamie MacNab]

TEC : CoE : ACNA : FOCA : GAFCON : Col : CiW : RC : HTB : ECA : ABC ...

Does anybody remember those far-off days when we got on very nicely with just a Church? How does a mere wannabe Christian make sense of all this?

[Bob Chapman]

The is something subtle, but important, in Resolution D025 that is being missed by many.

Resolution D025 does not remove the "show restraint" found in Resolution 2006-B033. It only says that all baptized members of the Episcopal Church have access to the discernment process.

A delegate has written on his blog:

[quote]
But B033 doesn’t touch on discernment; it calls for restraint in consent to certain elections. This may seem like a small distinction, and it is certainly a subtle one, but I believe it is highly significant. It is precisely the difference between B033, which passed the convention three years ago, and the ill-fated A161, the defeat of which occassioned the necessity of B033. D025 says, “We will follow our own procedures in disernment, and partnered gays will have full access to that process.” But it remains mute on B033’s call to “show restraint by not consenting.” It is not a full-on abrogation of B033. It flirts with doing so, but doesn’t pull the trigger. (from http://covenant-communion.net/index.php/site/articles/general_convention_journal_day_seven_sunday/ )
[/quote]

Following Dr. William's comments on religion correspondents, I might add another activity beyond becoming human: learning to understand subtle differences in language.

[dj]

Please see:
http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=221442675176&h=_B-pz&u=uyHM4&ref=mf

"Many of you will remember that Dr. Jenny Te Paa (principal of the College of Saint John the Evangelist, Auckland, New Zealand, within the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia) was a member of the Lambeth Commission that penned the so-called Windsor Report … which some people have now enshrined right up there with the Nicene Creed and the Lambeth Quadrilateral. I am astonished and grateful for her remarks. She reveals that the Lambeth Commission had no idea how our Episcopal Church operates. She gives thanks for our generosity in the face of massive assaults from others in the Communion. And she seems almost to apologize for what the Windsor Report and the primates have hurled upon our church."

[David Crawford]

Why is it that TEC can have a church in Asia, Central America, and 14 other area's where another Primate resides ? Then they complain when it is done to them. Does anyone see the complaining double standard ? Then they try and see this as a moral basis on par with the long history of tradition and scripture. So long TEC !!! You only have 700,000 people now worshiping in your church.You have been reduced to a fringe cult.

[Viriato da Silva]

I never cease to be amazed at the English myopia as to blowback. Does the CoE not see itself even now being prepared for a schism along the same lines as TEC/ACNA? Except, whereas ACNA represents no more than 5% of pre-ACNA TEC (to be generous), a FoCA/GAFCON schism within the CoE will likely be less of a shedding a` la ACNA leaving TEC and more of a genuine schism, taking a higher percentage.

For every CoE bishop aligning with FoCA/GAFCON and ally ACNA, at least one will align with TEC and with the CoI, CiW, and Scottish Episcopal Church... And your own civil war will likely be far more anguished and messy (what with establishment and all) than that in North America.

+++Rowan, see what thou hath wrought?

[Fr Mark]

Edward Craig: yes, that's an interesting point you make about the sensus fidelium. It's a difficult one, isn't it? The very top-down RC Church, for example, seems to me to be out of touch with its sensus fidelium - no-one much outside the hierarchy gives two hoots for eschewing contraception, as far as I can see; and RCs are just as likely (in Western countries, at least) to divorce orhave children out of wedlock as any one else. So, we are living in a time, I think, when church hierarchies are out of step with the lived reality of the faithful. Which could be why the faithful are giving up on hierarchical churches in droves. So, isn't the way TEC (and, in fact, also ACNA, I believe, from its constitution) run an attempt, at least, to discern and take account of the work of the Spirit in the lives of the faaithful?

[anon]

The schism has already happened. Nigeria, Uganda, ACNA, Rwanda, etc have effectively withdrawn from the communion. The rest of the communion is going to follow the way of the Episcopal church and embrace a new religion, one with no personal salvation - "thats just heresy don't you know", and will die out over the next generation, as indeed they deserve to, because they are no longer proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In time, part of the Church of England will break away and join ACNA, but by then they will probably be so weakened by the loss of members to non Anglican churches, which are now the only growing churches in England, that it is hard to be able to ever see Anglicanism having any sort of long term influence in England again.

Anglicanism is dying. This will be the last generation. Christianity on the other hand is alive and well, and will make a return in time.

[Arthur]

And why cannot Synod accept the ACNA whilst not rejecting TEC? And why, if the charge is contemplating schism according to TEC, the punishment must be to throw the presumed offenders out, as opposed to seeking a way to keep them in?

[simon]

It appears that the C of E has already effectively, if only informally, recognised CANA and ACNA if you have a good look at the faces of bishops assembled at HTB's recent 'International Alpha' conference. It's quite a line-up, with plenty of familiar faces on page 4 and 5 of the current edition of 'Alpha News'. ACNA and CANA bishops are listed as 'Anglican' attendees alongside the likes of the bishops of Birmingham, Durham and London. Okay, they'll say, it was HTB's gig, not the C of E's, but doesn't it feel like we're we living in parallel realities here?!

[robroy]

Eschewing false teachers certainly is Christian (Matt 7:15, 2 Peter 2:1). On the other hand, launching so many lawsuits (over 50) that one has to hire your own personal litigator is not Christian (1 Cor 6).

BTW, I hope people take time and enjoy by the charming photographs accompanying the article. Kudos to the photographer!

[Lapinbizarre]

Considering that Sugden is a prime mover in cross-border interventions in the US and Canadian churches, one of the three agreed moratoria to which he refers, his question reeks of hypocrisy. If Williams is serious about the moratoria maybe he can start by cleaning shop in his own front yard.

[Edward Craig]

Fr Mark

You cannot equate the house of deputies of the TEC with the Sensus Fidelium. Clearly, the concept of the sense of the faithful includes all the faithful of the universal church. I dare say the Church as a whole appears to be rejecting the very positions advocated by the TEC. In sum, it is the TEC that is in fact ignoring the voice of the Church.

[Si]

Surely, given that the ECA has just overturned amendments requested by the rest of the Anglican Communion to enable the ECA-impaired communion to carry on, it's the ECA, not the ACNA, that are the schismists? The ACNA want communion with the rest of the Anglicans around the world and also wants to travel in the same direction as the rest of the world's Anglicans. The ECA wanted to go another direction. They haven't pulled as hard as they can on the chords that unite, unlike the ECA. They haven't just stuck up their middle finger (the ECA did that last night) at the rest of the communion.

The ABC has to act to stop such a thing happening in the CofE - we have the start of it: there's many that are heading the same direction as the rest of the communion and many who are heading in the different direction of the ECA and the ties will break at some point in the future. He does this by walking the tightrope of not quite rejecting the ECA and not quite accepting the ACNA, which is what he's doing.

If the CofE doesn't condemn the ECA's schismatic actions last night or condemns the ACNA it will be a move that would impair communion with most of the other provinces. If it endorses the ACNA and rejects the ECA then it alienates a lot of its flock. Taking the narrow road between the rock and the hard place is the (worldly) sensible option for the ABC.

[Q.S.]

This just in: The Anglican Communion (ha!) is dead. Funeral at 11.

[Stephen Marsden]

If the House of Bishops of the C of E is indicative of the 'humanity' with which +Rowan is tempting you, Ruth, I'd stick with the grave burden of being a Religion Correspondent. You're a very much nicer person than any bishop I ever met!

[Fr Mark]

What an unfortunate comment by the Archbishop!

Throughout the process of ACNA setting up its schism in North America, he has been repeatedly asked to support the Episcopal Church and disown the schismatics, yet has said absolutely NOTHING. Yet, when the overwhelming majority of the laity and clergy of TEC give expression to what is, after all, the sensus fidelium, he intervenes immediately, even before the bishops have voted, to try to influence the outcome.

There is something very wrong with his view of how the Church works here. TEC cannot operate in defiance of the sensus fidelium in the reality-ignoring way which the C of E bishops are used to. If two thirds of the fathful believe that discrimination is wrong, then there is no point in trying to cajole them to act otherwise. Such tactics only work in England becase the laity are so supine: but then they are also losing interest in their national church fast, perhaps as a result of a history of such poor, and essentially high-handed, governance.