Jews, gays, greens attack SSPX

This video from Gloria TV shows the recent SSPX ordinations, controversial because it was illicit ordinations that got them excommunicated in the first place by Rome, a penalty now lifted amid controversy over the Holocaust-denying views of one of the bishops, England's Richard Williamson. But as Chris Gillibrand reports at Cathcon, these issues are not going to go away. As Reuters reported, the ordinations went ahead, even though the Holy See criticised them as illegitimate.

In Germany, they don't have Gay Pride. Instead they have Christopher Street Day.

It seems the SSPX have not only protested against Christopher Street Day, from which Gillibrand posts this pic of Goths, but have compared their protest to those of the resistance against the Nazis. They said, 'How proud we are when we read in a history book that there were brave Catholics in the Third Reich who said "We don't take part in this madness".' They are planning a counter protest: 'Must we Catholics let everything always fall by the wayside?  Must we always pay homage to the godless and say Yes, you mock only our faith and all that is holy to us. Then I ask myself. where were the Catholic men of Germany in recent years.  Actually at home gardening. Poor Germany.You are dead because there are no more Catholic men who want to fight for you.' Read the article in German here. You might incidentally also enjoy the 'female Pope' piece on p34.

In other words, the gays are behaving like Nazis, say the SSPX, seemingly ignorant of the fact that the Nazis a thing of murdering gays, along with Jews, Gypsies and numerous other gentle folk.

Chris reports that the Central Council of German Jews wants a response from the Holy See, which is reported, again by Gillibrand, to be on the verge of issuing a motu proprio to admit the SSPX further back into the Roman Catholic Church. The Greens also want action against the SSPX and are calling for intervention from the authorities charged with protecting the constitution.

General Secretary of the Central Council of German Jews, Stephan Kramer, said, 'The tenor of the SSPX comparison and its absurdity reveals everything about whose spiritual children they are. After the warm embrace of the group by the Pope, I am annoyed with this expression of opinion.'

Richard Williamson, incidentally, might still be facing prosecution in Germany, where Holocaust denial is a crime punishable by imprisonment.

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Comments

[Virgilio]

Mrs. Gledhill attacking the Holy Catholic
Church once more. It is getting
redundant. I read a piece by you,
where you confessed you were
texting during a mass. The parrishio-
ners there were to kind to you. Here,
you had been shown the door imme-
diately for your ignorant disrespect.
God have mercy on you.

[afcote]

"In other words, the gays are behaving like Nazis, say the SSPX"

Oh don't be ridiculous. All they are saying is that they, the SSPX, are prepared to be countercultural and go against the prevailing - and bullying - social mores.

[Andrew, Venezuela]

Richard (04/07/09 - 06:52:54). I was delighted to hear that you and your family had a good trip to Italy, plus short visits to France and Switzerland (did you, perchance, have the opportunity to "fine tune" your knowledge of Gallicanism and Calvinism in those latter two countries ?).

There is a very interesting exchange going on right now on the "Cardinal Newman beatification" thread on Ruth's Articles of Faith. Some of the posts there have dwelt on the meaning and conditions of sainthood. I have tried to "say something", but it would be exceptionally pertinent and useful if you could express an opinion/clarify this from the point of view of the Orthodox Churches. Do the Orthodox Churches, for example, require documented evidence of 'miraculous cures' of medical conditions as a prerequisite to sainthood, as in the RCC, or are they quite prepared to accept suitable candidates for beatification/canonisation on other good grounds, as the Anglicans do ?.

A post from you on that thread would be very much appreciated.

My best personal best wishes to you.

Andrew, Venezuela

[alan]

Chaim Lehman - I'm not sure which country you live in and I don't know how old you are or whether you've perhaps suffered horrible things in your lifetime.

Whatever - I happen to live in Germany and what you have written about this country is - with all due respect - rubbish.

Konrad Adenauer - an enemy of the state? Thought police? Come off it, man.

Could this distortion perhaps be the result of a world-view blinkered by religious zealotry?

[Richard Aluise]

Andrew

Thank you for your posts. I always enjoy them. Yes, my family and I had a very good trip to Northern Italy. We went into France several times and Switzerland once.

Very good points regarding freedom of choice. Without free will, we would be nothing more than God's robotic toys. Each of us makes choices based upon our own research, education and what we determine to be the best understanding of the facts presented.

Thanks again Andrew!

[Ted]

The Christopher Day sodomites are as [snip] as any Nazi with a fervent pagan psychopathic hate racist ideology. The SSPX are courageous to rebuke them.

[J Pearce]

"...the Nazis' killing of gays is largely a myth (the Nazis killed people - who happened to be gay - for purely political reasons), part of a gay attempt to capture and use the Holocaust for their own ends..."

Fantastic! Someone with the blog name "Cock" is trying to blame the holocaust on homosexuals.

Could he be Austrian by any chance?

[Andrew, Venezuela]

Richard: ODM, I forgot to mention this in my previous post addressed to you, but here we go:

In Spanish, as you can readily verify for yourself, there is a popular saying which is as follows: "Fulano es mas papista que el Papa", which translates as "X is more papist than the Pope". It is used, in all walks of life, to indicate someone whose mind is a bit like a spider web in his or her efforts to define things in the finest detail which are over and beyond the normal interpretation of the same. I think we could agree that such a term could well be applied to certain elements in our midst........

Kind regards.

Andrew, Venezuela

[Geoffrey Smith]

Yes, John Thomas, a leading figure in the Nazi Party was Ernst Röhm, a notorious homosexual, and he was not the only one.
It rather gives the lie to the gay propaganda that the Nazis persecuted German homosexuals. They certainly killed some, but not because of their sexual orientation.

[Andrew, Venezuela]

Richard (03/07/09 - 17:08:35): Merci beaucoup, mon ami, vous avez toute la raison !.

Being such a completely wide-minded person myself in these matters, I suppose the best approach would be to echo the Ancient Greek statement: "There are more things under the sun than dreamed of in your philosophy", and then leave it up to the - to each his/her own - dictum !.

Nice to see you back on these threads - I hope you had a pleasant trip to Northern Italy.

I think we should all be quite clear in recognising the fact that the membership of the SSPX, just as much as that of any other 'group', denomination, faith, religious belief or otherwise, is fully entitled to hold and to express their own opinions. Such opinions are susceptible to comment, and even to criticism by those who may not share such opinions, of course, but nobody should doubt that those opinions may be honestly held by their proponents. Whether they can be "defended" on a basis of a reasoned and intelligent debate is, of course, quite another matter. I must simply express my free acceptance of the rights of each individual to follow those lines of thought which may prove acceptable to that person, and basically leave it like that.

My kindest personal regards.

Andrew, Venezuela

[Richard Aluise]

Geoffrey Smith

I became Orthodox after studying for the Roman Catholic priesthood, but if I tell you where I studied, you will likely not believe me. I didn't study in the US. I studied in the French part of Switzerland, as I have explained in previous posts.

Your repulsive statement regarding why I left the seminary is rather amusing. When we discussed celibacy and deviance among RC priest in previous threads, I believe your comment was that the abuse and homosexuality was over exaggerated, and that the "vast majority" of priests held to their vows. Now that you discover I am a former Catholic seminarian, you immediately cast aspersions as to my reasons for leaving, suggesting that the US had quite a problem years ago with homosexuality. It would be helpful and kind if you could pick a position regarding sexual problems in the priesthood and be consistent. Apparently, you only accuse those who have left your church of sexually oriented issues which you find offensive.

With regard to Rembert Weakland, I am not sure why you chose him as an example of someone who does not fit the mold of an emasculated administrative assistant to the Pope. He was run out of office due to a scandal involving his paying church money ($400,000 or so, as I recall) to his former lover to fend off a lawsuit. Your logic of accusing me of things you find offensive as my reasons for leaving, yet in the same breath invoking a gay bishop who was run out of office by the Pope utterly escapes me. Perhaps you could clarify. I hope I am not the only one reading these pages who couldn't grasp the meaning of your logic.

Simply for background, the Orthodox, for the most part, are all united, with the exception of the Coptic. Even they and the other Orthodox Churches have nearly resolved their differences in belief, so I am not entirely wrong in saying that even the Coptic Church is united with the other Orthodox. Russian, Greek, Serbian, Antiochean, etc., share the same belief and exist in unity. I happen to attend the Greek Church services, but I routinely enjoy the Antiochean and Russian as well. Although not a teaching of my Church formally, I believe that any Church that holds to the teaching of the Seven Ecumenical Councils could be considered "Orthodox", in a more generic sense rather than a denominationally specific sense.

Geoffrey, with all due respect, your posts here are not persuading me that my switch to Orthodoxy was a mistake.

[Richard Aluise]

Andrew, Venezuela

"C'est magnifique la chose, mais c'est chez vous, ce n'est pas chez nous."

C'est la verite, mon ami. C'est vraiment chez eux.

Andrew, your description of the irony is absolutely correct. A traditionalist group protesting, essentially, that the Pope isn't Roman Catholic enough! What a strange turn of events.

[Richard]

With those organizations comdemning them, SSPX must be doing something right.

[j]

Gosh. Do you think that perhaps Judith A Reisman is ashamed of what her fellow countrymen did to the Jewish people and would like to argue that there were not "really" Germans like her, but could be redefined as Other as they were gay?

[John Thomas]

Actually, a (Jewish) scholar has strongly argued, recently, that the (original) Nazi movement was essentially gay, or lead by gays, and that the Nazis' killing of gays is largely a myth (the Nazis killed people - who happened to be gay - for purely political reasons), part of a gay attempt to capture and use the Holocaust for their own ends (the Nazi leaders mainly had no interest in women, but marriage was needed to prolong the Master Race): "The Pink Swastika as Holocaust Revisionist History",
Judith A. Reisman (these are her views, remember, not mine).

[Chaim Lehman]

Today in politically correct insane Germany and Wester media, Konrad Adenauer (Catholic anti-Nazi politician and exemplary democratic politician) would be considered an "enemy of the state" too. Ironically, Adenauer in 1966 said to a journalist: "Whatever this Council, Council this and Council that, I tell you one thing: I will always remain a Roman Catholic!" Green Eco-Socialists and Marxists of the Leftist (Die Linke, former Stasi PDS party) and thought police in Germany, remind me of Communist days. G-d bless all conservative Christians.

[Chaim Lehman]

Please note, that the SSPX article compares anti-Nazi resistance back then to anti-secularist resistance today. They never compared the acts of homosexual lobby parades to Nazi crimes. This is interpreted into the text by the Green Party and the Central Council of Jews, who are all too eager to demonize the conservative Roman Catholics. Especially the "reactionary" Catholic Society of St. Pius X is hated by them. But they also hate German bishop Walter Mixa of Augsburg (also bishop of the German Federal Army and NATO HQs).

[Geoffrey Smith]

"This is one of the reasons I became Orthodox. I came to the belief, after reading early Church councils and the writings of the Fathers of the Church, that the bishop's role was to safeguard the teachings of the Church as maintained in its councils, Scripture and Tradition."
- Richard Aluise, 2 JUL 2009, 18:54

You don't say what form of Orthodox, Mr Aluise. Russian? Greek? Serbian? Romanian? Estonian? Satan has sifted these Churches like wheat, since none of them now 'safeguards' the faith of our fathers.

"In today's RC Church, bishops are nothing more than emasculated administrative assistants of the Pope."
- op. cit.

You should have a word with Rembert Weakland about that. If you can stop him laughing, that is.

I take note that you were once a seminarian and approaching ordination in the Catholic Church.
Were you expelled from the seminary for some reason? Impropriety with another seminarian, for instance? It was quite a problem in Catholic seminaries in the US some years ago.

[David Palmer]

Yes, well when the gays and greens do the attacking SSPX can't be such a bad lot.

As I understand it the leader of the movement apologised to the Pope ealier this year for Williamson and ordered him to keep his trap shut. Their real crime is that they are conservative traditionalists and as such are entitled to that most basic of human rights: freedom of conscience, thought and religion.

[Scott]

What was commonplace only 40 years ago is now considered so controversial and even dispised by the modern elite.
What does this say about the modern world? Loosing touch with our past, even our most recent past, is a dangerous sign of the times.
Peace is built on tradition not on revolution, let's pray the SSPX is able to play a significant role in restoring Christianity to Germany and Europe.

[Andrew, Venezuela]

What a turn up for the history books dealing with the modern outreach of the Counter-Reformation !. Habemus an ultra-traditionalist 'group' (I would prefer not to use the term 'sect') mounting a visible and audible 21st. Century "Protestio" against the current CEO of the very denomination of which said 'group' supposedly forms a part.

And to think that there are those who 'criticise', 'decry' and 'shower scorn' on the various trials and tribulations experienced by other ecclesial communities.

C'est magnifique la chose, mais c'est chez vous, ce n'est pas chez nous.

The members of the SSPX are fully entitled to hold their own views and "do their own thing", since religious pluralism is a universally recognised human right.

Andrew, Venezuela

[Antek Zukowski]

Maybe the Greens should concentrate on the gardening to offset the climate change - the REAL problem, maybe the Jews to concentrate on near-nuclear Iran's leader denying Holocaust - the REAL problem, maybe the Gays should concentrate on celebrating the decriminalization of gay sex in India, instead of screeming "WOLF" every time SSPX does ANYTHING!? Get a life!

[Dr John Smythe]

It is sad see that so many have just not read the Holy Bible.

One would have hoped the lessons of Sodom and Gamorrah would have been learned ...

[Richard Aluise]

Chris Gillebrand wrote in his article:

"Rome proceeded in the same way with respect to the Institut du Bon Pasteur, without informing the Archbishop of Bordeaux, in whose Diocese it was located."

Actually, Chris, the Archbishop was consulted, and he vociferously objected. The Vatican utterly ignored his consternation and objections. Perhaps consulted isn't the proper term...the Archbishop was informed of the discussions, entered his strong objections, and then was ignored. One of the members of the Institut du Bon Pasteur, Fr. Paul Aulagnier, was a friend of mine many years ago, shortly after his ordination. The irony is that Aulagnier is one of the most moderate of the former SSPX priests, entirely unlike his peers. In fact, his moderation is why he was ejected from the society. He was too moderate.

This is one of the reasons I became Orthodox. I came to the belief, after reading early Church councils and the writings of the Fathers of the Church, that the bishop's role was to safeguard the teachings of the Church as maintained in its councils, Scripture and Tradition. Each bishop has that responsibility in the diocese, buffered by local and Ecumenical Councils. In today's RC Church, bishops are nothing more than emascualted administrative assistants for the Pope. These bishops should have had the authority, and would have in the early church, to keep these people out. Not today. "Roma locuta, causa finita" has never had more disastrous consequences than we see today, and not only in this instance.

The SSPX clings to the teachings of the Church as they existed prior to V2. Unfortunately, they don't recognize that the pre-V2 Church had already veered off course for several centuries. The SSPX clings to a Church already off course, V2 recognized some of the areas in which it was off course and tried to correct some of them. The Vatican wants the same structure as the pre-V2 Church, but not all of its errant views.

This will end in disaster for the RC Church. The Pope will force acceptance of the Society, because deep down he can't accept a Church whose teaching was acceptable before V2 now being unacceptable after V2. Just look at his "hermaneutics of continuity" theme for reference. He certainly isn't ready to acknowledge that the Church has veered off course for several centuries, culminating in the ludicrous papal infallibility teaching. We will end up with a Pope professing acceptance of V2, but only insofar as it agrees with or can be interpreted as saying the same things the RC Church said before V2, which isn't always possible.

What a disaster.

[momcilo]

Why is this such a problem? Are freedom of speech and assembly not protected by the German constitution?
Or do you renounce these "universal human rights" as soon as you oppose the homosexualist movement?

[Jamie MacNab]

Gosh! Can the world survive this?

[Geoffrey Smith]

This schism will soon degenerate into a full-blown heresy, like they all do. In spite of Pope Benedict's efforts, they are too full of hubris to listen to the Church.

[j]

and joking aside, here is another example of Rome apparently ignoring what people find abhorrent. Holocaust-deniers have no place in the spiritual hierarchy.

[j]

I see they approve of the foccacia photo that you blogged before.

Actually some of that article is brilliantly funny.

I think you should post the dinky diagram that tries to prove that you cant be a christian unless you believe in their specific church. It looks like something they would put on the wall in "The Office" at a motivational seminar.

Anyway it is nice to know (p2) that Luther is directly responsible for atheism and Marxism but could never have managed it without the French Revolution. Who knew?